The Liston vs. Clay/Ali Fights

[Sugarj]

Hi Sleazy,

I seem to remember the second being quite a good round for Liston, and he dominated the second half of round three. Round four was fairly even, quite quiet. I agree with you about round five being quite dominant for Liston based on Clay's eye issue, but I gather that of the six completed rounds the judges had scored rounds for Liston in other than round 5.

Seriously, watch the fight on You Tube. The lasting impression of the fight doesn't reflect what actually happened, Liston caught Clay with quite a few jabs, decent body blows and even lead left hooks. Liston didn't fight badly at all. prior to round six.

Clay would have still won though had Liston carried on, he clearly was faster and fresher.

I totally agree with you about Marciano vs Walcott 2 though!

[edgarg]

was wanting all of your HONEST opinions on what REALLY went down in these two fights? do you guys feel like Ali was just that good or do you think there was some funny business of the part of Liston?

Personally, and this is in no way a discredit to Ali, i think the Mob or someone got to Liston before this fight. I think whomever "they" were decided they were going to cash in on these two fights given the odds. Again, im not discrediting Ali in any way but I think that at point in his career, Liston should have beaten him.

I believe you are correct, Liston was actually under control of the Mob. In his spare time he was a "leg breaker" and hatchet man. There was huge scandal when he became champion. There were Senate investigations of his proven Mob management, and some went to gaol. His managership was changed, and he had to place himself under the control of a local Catholic priest, to learn morals and how to read. He didn't train for the first fight, having been encouraged by his cronies that Clay was uaeless.

For the return, he trained hard, was in the best shape of his life, and was fancied to win. However, shortly before the fight, Clay devoped a convenient "appendicitis", and the fight was postponed. Liston never regained his condition, and it's generally believed that he lay down in the 1st rd.
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The count was somewhat controversial, with VERY inexperienced Jersey Joe Walcott as the ref, and when Liston went down to a seemingly soft tap on his jaw, Walcott allowed Clay to stand over Liston, yelling at him, so the count was VERY disorganised. Eventually, Liston got up, thinking he'd been down long enough to be counted out, but Clay resumed the fight, as did Lston, (although very reluctantly).

Walcott was then distracted by RING owner and publisher Nat Fleischer, the acknowledged supreme boxing expert, who, gesticulating at his wristwatch, yelled that Liston had been down more than 10 seconds, and that the fight should be OVER.

Walcott, in complete disarray, finally broke up the 2 fighters and ruled that Liston had been counted out {although, not by him, the ref}

There is more but that's enough, I think......

[edgarg]

the fight in 64 was alis best fight, there is no way this fight was fixed, i have watched it more than 100times...
liston just didnt wanna continue to fight in their second fight, there is no fix.

How can you so confidently assert that "there was no fix", when Liston was owned, body and soul, by the Mafia gangsters?

[Schmerzen]

How can you so confidently assert that "there was no fix", when Liston was owned, body and soul, by the Mafia gangsters?

cuz liston tried to take alis head off in their first fight, u should count how much left hooks sonny was missing ..

[JAB5239]

impossible to fix a world title fight of that magnitude...

I don't believe it was fixed, but its definitely controversial. If the 1919 world series could have been fixed when baseball was the most popular sport in America, that fight could have been fixed. Jmo.

[sonnyboyx2]

I don't believe it was fixed, but its definitely controversial. If the 1919 world series could have been fixed when baseball was the most popular sport in America, that fight could have been fixed. Jmo.

i dont know nothing about the 1919 world series.. but who and how would anyone profit from fixing that fight?

[JAB5239]

i dont know nothing about the 1919 world series.. but who and how would anyone profit from fixing that fight?

I don't have an answer for that though its been speculated about since it occurred. Im just saying it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

[Bigdaddy_Vh]

I don't have an answer for that though its been speculated about since it occurred. Im just saying it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

that was simply my point as well...

ay jab, your 'Boys finally got that win last night, eh?

[JAB5239]

that was simply my point as well...

ay jab, your 'Boys finally got that win last night, eh?

Oh yeah! We're looking real strong right now. If we get by Minnesota, nothing will stop us from getting to the super bowl.

[sonnyboyx2]

I don't have an answer for that though its been speculated about since it occurred. Im just saying it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

i agree with you.. boxing in the 50s through to the early 60s had a black cloud hanging over it due to Mob involvment..