The greatest defensive artists of all time

[Brother Jay]

thanks for the videos, brother jay. defensive wizards are tough to come by these days.


you said it. it's like watching ballet.


one of my favorite wizards of all time.

Thank you for the video!

James Toney has always been one of the greatest defensive fighters of all time. He in his own right was a awesome as Sweet Pea. Toney didn't do as much flashy ducking and bobbing and weaving. He preferred to use the shoulder roll and slip punches. The man was fearsome. And let's not forget at his best he was P4P#1.

The reason I suspect many don't remember Toney as a defensive wizard is because he really did earn his nickname "Lights Out". The guy could not only dodge your best shots while standing toe to toe, but he could counter you and knock you out!

Knock outs are always going to be remembered. Much more so than the masterful way they were set up.

Many people don't remember that Mike Tyson and Kostya Tszyu were defensive wizards as amateurs. Tyson retained his defensive peek-a-boo style as long as Cus was alive. Tszyu unfortunately totally abandoned his defensive wizardry as soon as he realized that he carried thunder in both fists.

There are fans, and then there are people who watch fights. Don't confuse the two. Some people appreciate artistry. While others get their rocks off watching two been slug it out.

Sometimes both can be awesome, but I'd pay to see Thelonious Monk hit the keys with finesse before I'd pay to Gallagher to smash watermelons.

But that's just me.

Why?

Because any two pugs can make a great fight if they are willing to stand and trade until they are both almost out on their feet. Just look at Gatti/Ward. However it takes the highest order of skill to be able to matador a bull. With both fists flying towards a boxer, only the true best can keep their composure and operate like a surgeon.

That's the true difference between boxing and MMA: its in the level of mastery. If all it took to make a fight a candidate for "greatest fight of all time" is a willingness to trade, then toughman fights should be at the top. Many of those guys are closing their eyes and swinging!

Like I said ... I'll take jazz any day.

Glad you guys are enjoying this and thanks again to Body Movin' for the great Toney vid!

[SCtrojansbaby]

Ricardo Lopez and James Toney IMO mastered the art of defense

[CubanGuyNYC]

There are fans, and then there are people who watch fights. Don't confuse the two. Some people appreciate artistry. While others get their rocks off watching two been slug it out.

Sometimes both can be awesome, but I'd pay to see Thelonious Monk hit the keys with finesse before I'd pay to Gallagher to smash watermelons.

But that's just me.

Why?

Because any two pugs can make a great fight if they are willing to stand and trade until they are both almost out on their feet. Just look at Gatti/Ward. However it takes the highest order of skill to be able to matador a bull. With both fists flying towards a boxer, only the true best can keep their composure and operate like a surgeon.

That's the true difference between boxing and MMA: its in the level of mastery. If all it took to make a fight a candidate for "greatest fight of all time" is a willingness to trade, then toughman fights should be at the top. Many of those guys are closing their eyes and swinging!

Like I said ... I'll take jazz any day.
Glad you guys are enjoying this and thanks again to Body Movin' for the great Toney vid!

As a big jazz fan, I totally get where you're coming from. (Although I prefer 'Trane to Monk. ) You make an excellent point about pugs brawling and MMA. I hate to sound full of myself, but I believe that only sophisticated enough fans can appreciate nuance. There's the commercial stuff intended for mass-consumption, then there's the good stuff that barely sells, like jazz....

[ILLuminato]

Defensive boxing is way too easy and even then, you can only be "defensive" if another fighter is using offense.

I have a greater appreciation for people who can control opponents with their jab and offense. And I'm almost impossible to hit in the ring, but then I realized that it's immoral to continue to back up and take advantage of another man's offense.

[DE100]

Good thread.



^ Great video, everyone should check out.

[Holmes]

Floyd Mayweather
Pernell Whittaker
Muhammad Ali
Roy Jones jr
Mike Tyson
Yuriokis Gamboa

[John Barron]

I got a bit sad watching that, I remember a lot of those fights, good stuff bro. It sucks knowing that your boy can never regain his prime and perform like that again, just like I feel about a 30'ish Marquez at 126.

yeah man, it's a shame where toney is at right now.

Thank you for the video!

James Toney has always been one of the greatest defensive fighters of all time. He in his own right was a awesome as Sweet Pea. Toney didn't do as much flashy ducking and bobbing and weaving. He preferred to use the shoulder roll and slip punches. The man was fearsome. And let's not forget at his best he was P4P#1.

The reason I suspect many don't remember Toney as a defensive wizard is because he really did earn his nickname "Lights Out". The guy could not only dodge your best shots while standing toe to toe, but he could counter you and knock you out!

Knock outs are always going to be remembered. Much more so than the masterful way they were set up.

Many people don't remember that Mike Tyson and Kostya Tszyu were defensive wizards as amateurs. Tyson retained his defensive peek-a-boo style as long as Cus was alive. Tszyu unfortunately totally abandoned his defensive wizardry as soon as he realized that he carried thunder in both fists.

There are fans, and then there are people who watch fights. Don't confuse the two. Some people appreciate artistry. While others get their rocks off watching two been slug it out.

Sometimes both can be awesome, but I'd pay to see Thelonious Monk hit the keys with finesse before I'd pay to Gallagher to smash watermelons.

But that's just me.

Why?

Because any two pugs can make a great fight if they are willing to stand and trade until they are both almost out on their feet. Just look at Gatti/Ward. However it takes the highest order of skill to be able to matador a bull. With both fists flying towards a boxer, only the true best can keep their composure and operate like a surgeon.

That's the true difference between boxing and MMA: its in the level of mastery. If all it took to make a fight a candidate for "greatest fight of all time" is a willingness to trade, then toughman fights should be at the top. Many of those guys are closing their eyes and swinging!

Like I said ... I'll take jazz any day.

Glad you guys are enjoying this and thanks again to Body Movin' for the great Toney vid!

@ 1:55

but i couldn't agree with you more. a lot of people overlook the wondrous subtleties in this game and i think we can thank the rocky movies for that, lol.

[tangalog2200]

I know im going to be hated for this but. I will never rate fighters who I havent seen extensively as great, but yet for the longest time we have all these old farts telling us how amazing these guys were when there is 1-2 grainy video's for their entire careers.

Boxing was so diffirent back then, level of competition was much lower, their technique was worse and how many of them took it like a full time job? Maybe the top of the top could afford to do it, and they fought dudes who worked 50 hours in a coal mine.

I know Boxing is a old-mans sport but I also know that if enough people say something for lots of years then it must be true right? Wrong.

I studied Sport Evolution, and I will say those guys were greats in their time they are NOTHING compared to todays fighter.

Today's fighter is better educated, better trained, better prepared, has better medical access.

Todays boxing is less corrupt, alot more competitive since even a Journeyman makes enough money off boxing to train full time and truly great fighters are seperated by a very thin margin. and we also have FULL VIDEO Evidence for almost all fights of any modern fighter and dont cherry pick 1-2 Grainy Videos where you cant see anything.

Could they have been greats today? Maybe, theres ALOT more competition today and alot of fighters get weeded out thru the Amateurs so we only get best of the crop.

Back then? Heya Joe, I heard you were the toughest guy in town! You wanna fight Bobby from Virginia? Sure!

I cant wait until 20-30 years pass so most of the old dudes who are clinging on to the past are gone and we base fighters on their performances that we can actually see and rate them on, instead of rating people off 1-2 grainy videos and wivestales from the modern equivalent of *****s and *******s

/flame on

very nicely stated.....

for me, offense is the best defense......

it is the only kind of defense that also gives a fighter points...

and even a ko or tko

[Kagami Taiga]

whew! all i gotta say about that is i love boxing!!!

[Brother Jay]

As a big jazz fan, I totally get where you're coming from. (Although I prefer 'Trane to Monk. ) You make an excellent point about pugs brawling and MMA. I hate to sound full of myself, but I believe that only sophisticated enough fans can appreciate nuance. There's the commercial stuff intended for mass-consumption, then there's the good stuff that barely sells, like jazz....

Awww my dude! Trane is the man, but I had to use Monk, as the analogy required some form of percussion for it to make sense. Dig?

Subtleties have always been what made the greats great. Of course you will have those guys like Gatti who have buckets of heart, and are willing to die in the ring, but that has less to do with skill and more to do with touching a chord in the human soul that recognizes how rare that kind of courage and determination is.

That is its own separate beauty.

Man .. you made me smile so hard with your Coltrane reference that my eyes teared up, dude. When I need to get moving and stay busy, his Russian Lullaby has never let me down.

Thanks for affording me the opportunity to appreciate that lost art form with a stranger but a kindred soul, brother.