Did Sonny take a dive?

[Cardinal Buck]

He was definitely dropped by a good, hard shot. I still don't understand why things like this aren't resolved. It's so clear on film. It's not whether he got hit and dropped or not, because that is indisputable. He did. It's whether he could have gotten back up, but decided not to.

You can clearly see the punch land very cleanly and obviously very hard as his entire back ripples from the effect of the punch landing.

I think he was dropped hard, but then chose not to get up as he already knew the outcome.

HE DID GET UP! There was no count and he got up and started fighting again. Walcott then stopped it like an idiot. Should've been a DQ or No Contest.

[Cardinal Buck]

The punch was right on the button and the knockdown was for real.

What looked phony to me was Sonny falling over again after he was down
This looked like someone trying to make the effects of the punch look
more damaging than what it was.

Regardless, Sonny did get up and was willing to continue the fight.

Bottom line: real punch, bizarre ending

Thank you. I agree completely. It was bulls hit.

[elfag]

Liston had known connections to the mob.

Liston was supposed to win the first fight and was so desperate to win he cheated, having his coach put on a substance on his gloves to irritate Ali's eyes.

Liston loses, pissing off the mob who had money on him.

Mob makes him take a dive 2nd fight for pay back.

The fall looks completely fake and he doesnt fall at all but crotches down catching himself with his arms.

Liston dies mysteriously in his 40's, killed by the mob.

[Debopam Roy]

yes yes, he did 'get up'. But I didnt mean it in that sense. I meant, he 'didnt get up', you understand?

[Bodyshot3]

@el***

Agreed, Liston had some big-time mob connections (he's mentioned in FBI investigations well before the Ali fight) and any discussion about this fight does at least need to consider the very real possiblity that there was a high degree of criminal involvement.

The mob were not involved in boxing because they liked the sport and wanted champions; what they actually wanted was the colossal money to be made by getting big money put down on a favourite who unexpectedly crashed by a shock stoppage or by placing a huge, colossal late bet on the underdog. Sometimes they did both and doubled-up.

Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palermo - two hardcore mobsters notorious for fixing boxing matches for over a decade before this fight happened - were known associates of Liston and more than capable of intimidating Sonny into taking a dive. You did not mess these guys, even if you were a heavyweight champ.

The fight was in 1964 - a high point for organised crime in the United States -so it would seem to be naive to think that these guys would have just sat back and allowed things to happen without trying to impose their interests on the situation.

[Rspen46]

I believe he took a dive, Ali eventually developed some decent power later in his career but not this early, maybe Liston possibly did the 1st "No Mas" who knows, he was at the end & getting old for boxing, & Ali's style was a pain in the ass for him, so either way, he chose not to get up & finish the fight, the way the Mob was into boxing then, I say maybe a payoff to send 1 champ off into the sunset, while a new money making kid took over the reigns.

[AntonTheMeh]

i think he did. i mean, he was knocked down, but that wasn't a ktfo kinda punch. dude was rolling around like a upside down turtle for a second. even the crowd could tell which is why they started booing. i still think he would have been humiliated though.

[Cardinal Buck]

Why did he get up then? By definition, that isn't a dive. If anything, the time keeper was crooked

[res]

There's no dispute that a punch was landed but it was not a knockout punch-certainly not enough to make Liston roll over as if poleaxed.
In 42 fights after Liston, Ali had only 6 KO'S. In his 62 fights he had only one other first round KO (ROBINSON 1-2-0). Ali was not a puncher. The phantom punch was never seen again-either before or after Liston! Liston took a dive!

You combine those stats proving that Ali wasn't a puncher, the fact that Liston had a legendary chin, and the idea of a first round Ko and it just doesn't compute. You'd think that if Ali packed that kind of power he would just koed Floyd Patterson sheerly by accident by the time round 11 had rolled around.

[Scott9945]

You combine those stats proving that Ali wasn't a puncher, the fact that Liston had a legendary chin, and the idea of a first round Ko and it just doesn't compute. You'd think that if Ali packed that kind of power he would just koed Floyd Patterson sheerly by accident by the time round 11 had rolled around.

Your points are all valid, but it should be noted that Ali carried Patterson that long to punish him for what he considered disrespect to his new religion.