Bert Sugar ''Joe Frazier Is A Greater Heavyweight And Fighter, Than Larry Holmes''

[General Zod]

Prime Ali destroys Holmes. Is this a serious conversation?

If you are responding to my post I meant that BritishBoxing should check out the circumstances surrounding the Ali Holmes fight. Clearly Ali wasnt 100%. In a fantasy matchup Ali has a good chance but he wouldnt destory Holmes. Ali by UD in a very close fight

[CarlosG815]

If you are responding to my post I meant that BritishBoxing should check out the circumstances surrounding the Ali Holmes fight. Clearly Ali wasnt 100%. In a fantasy matchup Ali has a good chance but he wouldnt destory Holmes. Ali by UD in a very close fight

I wasn't responding to your post specifically, but to all the posts.

I could see a UD in that fight, but I'm not so sure that Holmes would be any kind of match for Ali. He was way too quick and slick.

[crold1]

Ali-Holmes would have been a fascinating fight both on their best day. Holmes jab was better than Ali's and he whipped to the body well; Ali was faster and had better feet. I favor Ali to outpoint him but he'd have to work for it. Wouldn't surprise me to see one hell of a three fight series.

[GJC]

Ali-Holmes would have been a fascinating fight both on their best day. Holmes jab was better than Ali's and he whipped to the body well; Ali was faster and had better feet. I favor Ali to outpoint him but he'd have to work for it. Wouldn't surprise me to see one hell of a three fight series.

I'd favour pre lay off Ali heavily but post lay off Ali v Holmes would be interesting for sure, do think that as a fight it wouldn't be the most exciting though.

[gibo]

Ali never ducked anyone. Or Joe!!! Holmes refused to fight Greg Page and threw his Championship Belt in a trash can!!! Ali and Frazier out class Larry by far!!!

[sonnyboyx2]

Ali-Holmes would have been a fascinating fight both on their best day. Holmes jab was better than Ali's and he whipped to the body well; Ali was faster and had better feet. I favor Ali to outpoint him but he'd have to work for it. Wouldn't surprise me to see one hell of a three fight series.

Holmes jab was nothing compaired to the brilliant Jab of Muhammad Ali... Ali almost floored Foreman with his jab, Ali had the fastest and best jab in boxing history... Holmes was easily beaten to the jab by michael Spinks over 30rds.. also out-jabbed by Carl Williams & Bonecrusher Smith

[bklynboy]

Bert Sugar is a clown and an ass-clown at that Real boxing historians are embarrassed to have that yellow journalist associated with them.

Poet

I don't like Bert Sugar either but in this case I agree with him. Larry Holmes was very good, but how good we don't know because he wasn't tested in his prime. Yes he dominated the division but so do the K's and who considers either of them TOP heavyweights because of their domination?

Frazier, on the other hand, fought in probably the best heavyweight era of all-time and he more than held his own. I don't think that Holmes footwork would have kept him away from Frazier and his jab, while excellent, wasn't better than Ali's. Frazier would have made his life a living hell and we don't know if Holmes had the chin or the will to take Frazier's punishment.

When two men are fighting, what you're watching is more a contest of wills than of skills, with the stronger will usually overcoming the skill. The skill will prevail only when it is so superior to the other man's skill that the will is not tested.
Cus D'Amato

[bklynboy]

I'd favour pre lay off Ali heavily but post lay off Ali v Holmes would be interesting for sure, do think that as a fight it wouldn't be the most exciting though.

Absolutely. I think early Ali would destroy Holmes but the later Ali might have some trouble with a prime Holmes. Holmes was a big man with an excellent jab, good balance, technically sound.

[crold1]

Holmes jab was nothing compaired to the brilliant Jab of Muhammad Ali... Ali almost floored Foreman with his jab, Ali had the fastest and best jab in boxing history... Holmes was easily beaten to the jab by michael Spinks over 30rds.. also out-jabbed by Carl Williams & Bonecrusher Smith

I disagree in your take that it was "nothing" in comparison. In his peak period, Holmes jab was as good as any in history. The struggles you mention all came later in his championship run and simply aren't true of the second Spinks fight. Ali's jab was faster but how consistently he stepped into it often was defined by who he was fighting. Holmes was still beating decent and occasionally better than that fighters well into his 40s primarily off the stick. Ali had a better right, and faster feet, but his jab wasn't better IMO.

I don't like Bert Sugar either but in this case I agree with him. Larry Holmes was very good, but how good we don't know because he wasn't tested in his prime. Yes he dominated the division but so do the K's and who considers either of them TOP heavyweights because of their domination?

Frazier, on the other hand, fought in probably the best heavyweight era of all-time and he more than held his own. I don't think that Holmes footwork would have kept him away from Frazier and his jab, while excellent, wasn't better than Ali's. Frazier would have made his life a living hell and we don't know if Holmes had the chin or the will to take Frazier's punishment.

When two men are fighting, what you're watching is more a contest of wills than of skills, with the stronger will usually overcoming the skill. The skill will prevail only when it is so superior to the other man's skill that the will is not tested.
Cus D'Amato

Holmes was tested plenty; if anything, Holmes sometimes made fights harder than they needed to be through a willingness to war in his prime. He has one of the most rewatchable collections of grueling action fights of any Heavyweight. Norton, Shavers II, Weaver, Snipes, Cooney, Witherspoon, Williams, Mercer...all fantastic fights or performances where Holmes displayed tremendous courage and skill and when called on a chin and recuperative powers.

The question of he and Frazier is a good one; not sure who'd win. I know it would be one hell of a fight.

[Jim Jeffries]

I'm not a huge fan of Holmes, but I've always had him ranked higher than Frazier. Though Joe's biggest win obviously outshines any of Larry's.