Who do you rank higher as an all-time great, Pacquiao or JC Chavez?

[Weltschmerz]

Probably Chavez. But it may just be nostalgia talking. Pacquiao has the better resume I think. He's today's Roberto Duran.

Like you do with many fighters.

[10,000 Days]

I think Manny has the better wins, but he also has blemishes on his record that Julio didn't. I voted for JCC.

[billeau2]

I did. Invented in Tijuana by Caesar Cardini. I've made one from scratch before.....the raw egg in the dressing gave me the ****s from hell but damn it was worth it :cool9:

Raw eggs are delictable. I sometimes make classic ****tails, many of which use egg whites as froth and in original sour mix....What a taste and texture! But yeah the eggs have to be fresh. You can't really get the same flavor or texture, hence the wonderful taste of Cardini's table side masterpiece....people occasionally grill lettuces to some effect, but for my money? an original ceaser is one of the best salads around.

[billeau2]

I think Manny has the better wins, but he also has blemishes on his record that Julio didn't. I voted for JCC.

Bingo! that would be a factor. Chavez' biggest blemish imo is getting outclassed by pee wee

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I think Manny has the better wins, but he also has blemishes on his record that Julio didn't. I voted for JCC.

Bingo! that would be a factor. Chavez' biggest blemish imo is getting outclassed by pee wee

I think your overcritical of manny's resume..

Sure he got knocked out as a young teenager, but he also won a world title as a teenager.. Chavez turned pro as late in his teenage years, and didnt face anyone of note till he was in his early 20s.. Manny had already been a world champ..

As for blemishes... You cant say that chavez' only one was pernell and then disregard the loss to randall months later..

Chavez was a true world caliber fighter from 85-92,, seven years.. Manny has been a true world caliber fighter from 98-14 and counting, thats 16 years and DOUBLE the time period of chavez..

Chavez was my favorite as a child along with toney, holyfield, fab four and tyson.
But the dude was done by 93 at the elite level, and was still good enough to fight for paper titles and fringe contenders but would get smoked by anyone that was truly elite...

H2H i like chavez better than manny, but in terms of resume, i think its manny and its pretty clear.. There isnt a single category that chavez trumps manny

World titles- manny
weight classes- manny
longevity- manny
list of foes- manny

If your going by resume, i just dont see how chavez is better than manny..

[IronDanHamza]

Close but I would lean on Pacquaio.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Close but I would lean on Pacquaio.

LOL says the man with the manny AVI,,

[billeau2]

I think your overcritical of manny's resume..

Sure he got knocked out as a young teenager, but he also won a world title as a teenager.. Chavez turned pro as late in his teenage years, and didnt face anyone of note till he was in his early 20s.. Manny had already been a world champ..

As for blemishes... You cant say that chavez' only one was pernell and then disregard the loss to randall months later..

Chavez was a true world caliber fighter from 85-92,, seven years.. Manny has been a true world caliber fighter from 98-14 and counting, thats 16 years and DOUBLE the time period of chavez..

Chavez was my favorite as a child along with toney, holyfield, fab four and tyson.
But the dude was done by 93 at the elite level, and was still good enough to fight for paper titles and fringe contenders but would get smoked by anyone that was truly elite...

H2H i like chavez better than manny, but in terms of resume, i think its manny and its pretty clear.. There isnt a single category that chavez trumps manny

World titles- manny
weight classes- manny
longevity- manny
list of foes- manny

If your going by resume, i just dont see how chavez is better than manny..

Forgot about Frankie Randall fair enough on that one. Resumes is one category and titles is another. What isn't reflected are things like how pac got some gift decisions against marquez and in many people's eyes did not show he was dominant over Marquez. JC was dominant...period. I say this not to play devil's advicate...I for one actually think the judges got a few of those decisions wrong and that would have given Marquez a great advantage. I also question many titles...Some matter more than others. A better indicator for me is dominance.

For example, Ward has not won a ton of titles but in my opinion Ward dominated his division and even hopped up to beat a guy who at the time, was considered on a par with Ward and Floyd...Did he win a title from hopping up and beating Dawson? I honestly do not remember. Does it matter? Well it wasn't the heavyweight championship belt....

pacquio fought and was very good but i don't think he was as dominant as JC and titles don't necessarily mean otherwise.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Forgot about Frankie Randall fair enough on that one. Resumes is one category and titles is another. What isn't reflected are things like how pac got some gift decisions against marquez and in many people's eyes did not show he was dominant over Marquez. JC was dominant...period. I say this not to play devil's advicate...I for one actually think the judges got a few of those decisions wrong and that would have given Marquez a great advantage. I also question many titles...Some matter more than others. A better indicator for me is dominance.

For example, Ward has not won a ton of titles but in my opinion Ward dominated his division and even hopped up to beat a guy who at the time, was considered on a par with Ward and Floyd...Did he win a title from hopping up and beating Dawson? I honestly do not remember. Does it matter? Well it wasn't the heavyweight championship belt....

pacquio fought and was very good but i don't think he was as dominant as JC and titles don't necessarily mean otherwise.

1 Dawson hopped down and fought ward at 168

2 jmm and Marquez both got gifts in the rivalry.. Manny should have won the first one, and Marquez should have won the 3rd

3. Marquez was manny's rival throughout his career, at feather, super feather, welter.. For ten years they battled.. How do you think Chavez would have done if he fought pernell in 87,89,93,95. Chavez would have struggled as well...

4 Chavez never showed to the extent manny did that he was dominant vs world class guys..
Manny stopped barrera, hatton, cotto. All world title caliber champs.. Chavez never stopped anyone that good as Barrera.. Manny literally destroyed hatton and cotto.. In no way was Chavez super dominant in his big wins.. Maybe vs roger mayweather but other than that he never destroyed guys.. He might dominant on the scorecards vs camacho but so did manny vs Bradley, Barrera 2,

5. Chavez never beat bigger guys.. He had zero success at welter,, manny has at least beaten margs, cotto, clottey.. All legit welters

6. Manny has beaten more reigning lineal champs- sasakqol, Barrera, Marquez 130, hatton 140(147 fight but Ricky was lineal)

7. Chavez had a run of a few years where he beat a lot of top guys but the majority of his career and winning streak were against lesser caliber fighter guys.. Manny's worst opponents during his prime run are rios,algieri, 3k battery, larios, solis and all those guys were Titlists except for 3k.. Much higher caliber than chavez's worst opponents during his prime run, and Chavez fought more nobodies than any fighter in recent times.. He has like 120 fights, but in reality he has about 20 that are legit.. Take into account that most fighters get 20 easy fights early, and Chavez without all the bum fights in Mexico would probably be somewhere around 52-4-1 or somewhere like that... Go look at his record, he took on all the top guys but also took on about 75 guys with no chance

[billeau2]

1 Dawson hopped down and fought ward at 168

2 jmm and Marquez both got gifts in the rivalry.. Manny should have won the first one, and Marquez should have won the 3rd

3. Marquez was manny's rival throughout his career, at feather, super feather, welter.. For ten years they battled.. How do you think Chavez would have done if he fought pernell in 87,89,93,95. Chavez would have struggled as well...

4 Chavez never showed to the extent manny did that he was dominant vs world class guys..
Manny stopped barrera, hatton, cotto. All world title caliber champs.. Chavez never stopped anyone that good as Barrera.. Manny literally destroyed hatton and cotto.. In no way was Chavez super dominant in his big wins.. Maybe vs roger mayweather but other than that he never destroyed guys.. He might dominant on the scorecards vs camacho but so did manny vs Bradley, Barrera 2,

5. Chavez never beat bigger guys.. He had zero success at welter,, manny has at least beaten margs, cotto, clottey.. All legit welters

6. Manny has beaten more reigning lineal champs- sasakqol, Barrera, Marquez 130, hatton 140(147 fight but Ricky was lineal)

7. Chavez had a run of a few years where he beat a lot of top guys but the majority of his career and winning streak were against lesser caliber fighter guys.. Manny's worst opponents during his prime run are rios,algieri, 3k battery, larios, solis and all those guys were Titlists except for 3k.. Much higher caliber than chavez's worst opponents during his prime run, and Chavez fought more nobodies than any fighter in recent times.. He has like 120 fights, but in reality he has about 20 that are legit.. Take into account that most fighters get 20 easy fights early, and Chavez without all the bum fights in Mexico would probably be somewhere around 52-4-1 or somewhere like that... Go look at his record, he took on all the top guys but also took on about 75 guys with no chance

Ill respond to each point by number

1. Irrelevant, which is precisely my point. Whether Ward won a title or not is not the issue, the issue is the quality of opposition.

2. and 3. Regardless, Manny was not dominant because of Marquez. Whitaker imo was on a whole nother level from either guy. Whitaker happened to outclass JC towards the end of his twilight but this was irrelelvant because the pea would have beaten JC anytime anywhere

4. Thats kind of subjective isn't it? Since when did a spent hatton become world class opposition? Barrera was impressive and so was Cotto but that does not necessarily put him in a other class with respect to resume.

5. So to your way of thinking a fighter is better when they leave their division? or...when they fight in a different division? since when? This argument is ridiculous, Roy heads use it to make it appear as though Roy beating Ruiz was a fiate!

6. Ok I guess that is a point to concede. I don't know that this implies a better quality of fighter with no caveats.

7. No. There are fighters and a system in Mexico. Personally I do not care for the way fighters generally train in that system....a point alluded to by Nacho Bernstein BTW...BUT they are not bums and Chavez was consistant in his years. Pacquio has a history of fighting guys when they have twilighted also, but again, this would be nitpicking. A done Margarito, a past it Hatton, a mentally tortured cotto, a De La Hoya that had seen better days, need I go on?

I can see arguments for pacquia. I don't really like JC a hell of a lot. You have made some good points about titlists and quality issues.