Archie Moore compared to James Toney

[billeau2]

Both guys could punch...many would be suprised to find that Archie had the most career KO's of any fighter. Both guys were very well skilled, counter punching, slipping punches, using the shoulder as a weapon, etc.

One can see the influence of Moore even in karate where great teachers such as Riley Hawkins teach the use of the shoulder and slidding in similar to the mongoose/old mongoose.

Both men went way up the divisions because they had the skills and punch to compensate for being smaller than most other heavyweights. Archie fought so much and would often win "by a thousand cuts" so to speak, instead of one big finale. Even in his KO's Moore often set them up through attrition much as Toney did...Toney was even able to drop Holyfield, which was quite a feat even at that time in Evander's career.

before I go on, lets see what others have to say about these two slippery, methodical counterpunchers who could also put "lights out!"

[IronDanHamza]

James Toney idolised Archie Moore I believe.

Archie Moore IMO is one of the greatest 10-20 fighters in the history of the sport.

James Toney no where close.

[Ray Corso]

Toney is very favorable to Moore in the Methods & Techniques!
In fact theres no one closer to Moore than Toney since the 60's era ended.
I think Toney's intrigue is because his style isn't duplicated these days.
Back in the 40's thru the 60's that style was taught to men who didn't have natural lateral moves and it was utilizes by men who could punch hard!
In many ways it's similar to the original Mexican style, not in total form but in results when performed correctly. It was a toe to toe methodology that was extremely favorable for live shows. It was favored by promoters to insure an action match up.
Short stepping and working in tight with utilizing pivot moves was not an easy
style to perfect your defense & offense was in play far more often than a boxer who could move.
Toney was very very good at performing that style and was successful too.
I don't know about ATG status but I think thats over blown anyways.
Wlad & Mayweather are NOT ATG's to me not even close so Toney isn't either but I'd rather watch him at his best than them at theirs!

Ray

[ShoulderRoll]

I think Toney's intrigue is because his style isn't duplicated these days.

I would agree with that. His style seems novel and exotic as hardly anyone knows how to use it anymore. The same applies to Floyd Mayweather Jr I would say.

And to me that just proves the point that boxing in the current era has gotten worse not better when compared to the old days. Back then this style (and several others that are now forgotten) were in common use.

Today those intricacies can't be taught by just anyone. And "jab jab grab" is viewed by some as the height of skill.

[billeau2]

Toney is very favorable to Moore in the Methods & Techniques!
In fact theres no one closer to Moore than Toney since the 60's era ended.
I think Toney's intrigue is because his style isn't duplicated these days.
Back in the 40's thru the 60's that style was taught to men who didn't have natural lateral moves and it was utilizes by men who could punch hard!
In many ways it's similar to the original Mexican style, not in total form but in results when performed correctly. It was a toe to toe methodology that was extremely favorable for live shows. It was favored by promoters to insure an action match up.
Short stepping and working in tight with utilizing pivot moves was not an easy
style to perfect your defense & offense was in play far more often than a boxer who could move.
Toney was very very good at performing that style and was successful too.
I don't know about ATG status but I think thats over blown anyways.
Wlad & Mayweather are NOT ATG's to me not even close so Toney isn't either but I'd rather watch him at his best than them at theirs!

Ray

Very well said. often Toney would forgo a jab so he could counter with a right by pivoting the front shoulder. I actually think Floyd's Shoulder roll was a bastardization of this...the geography is right (Michigan). Moore at times was even moore square in the center of the ring, and would slide to the side off the shot while using the shoulder and forearm to take the punch.

Good stuff!

[billeau2]

James Toney idolised Archie Moore I believe.

Archie Moore IMO is one of the greatest 10-20 fighters in the history of the sport.

James Toney no where close.

Yes Moore was a lot better. What is interesting is to trace the evolution of technique to geography. Michigan has been a wellspring of guys very capable technically. As Shoulder Roll said, Mayweather has similarities to toney...the shoulder roll even though it is utilized differently.

its not always the greatness of the fighters...Michael Moore was according to many at Kronk gym, well respected for his technical abilities as a fighter well beyond his status.

[IronDanHamza]

Yes Moore was a lot better. What is interesting is to trace the evolution of technique to geography. Michigan has been a wellspring of guys very capable technically. As Shoulder Roll said, Mayweather has similarities to toney...the shoulder roll even though it is utilized differently.

its not always the greatness of the fighters...Michael Moore was according to many at Kronk gym, well respected for his technical abilities as a fighter well beyond his status.

I love Toney's style to be honest.

I feel defensively he's not as good as people say, he's not difficult to hit especially when he shells up, the right hook to the body is basically always open.

But where Toney excels is when he's countering, catching a shot and coming back with crisp hard shots, the overhand right especially.

Another place where Toney lacks his movement, his feet aren't good IMO he excels at close range and on the inside as opposed to boxing on the outside.

That's what cost him IMO against the higher level boxers I.e Jones, McCallum, Griffin and Reggie Johnson. And even Nunn before the KO.

[billeau2]

I love Toney's style to be honest.

I feel defensively he's not as good as people say, he's not difficult to hit especially when he shells up, the right hook to the body is basically always open.

But where Toney excels is when he's countering, catching a shot and coming back with crisp hard shots, the overhand right especially.

Another place where Toney lacks his movement, his feet aren't good IMO he excels at close range and on the inside as opposed to boxing on the outside.

That's what cost him IMO against the higher level boxers I.e Jones, McCallum, Griffin and Reggie Johnson. And even Nunn before the KO.

Yeah he doesn't like to be in prime real estate against a mover...Roy really took him to task on that one without a doubt.

[Elroy1]

These threads always present a conundrum for me..

For a starters let's address what "I" feel is the relevant point here as far as "History" goes.

Yes it is clear that Archie Moore laid the blueprint for Toney's style.

And it's clear Toney drew much inspiration from Toney.

Archie Moore was INDEED as Hamza put's it, one of the greats of the sport, beyond doubt...

Now time to address the other side of the coin..

The nut baggery..

It is ALSO clear that Archie Moore was a bum! Completely objectively, he had a bummy record!! It's just that, back in Moore's day, bums had an opportunity to excel more so that today.

Even though we CALL Wilder a bum, he is more accurately a bum buster. It is clear he is better than actual bums, just not good enough for top level.

But Moore, he failed always and often against comparable trash.

And with regards to Toney, it should come as no surprise that in no parallel universe could Moore ever survive a round of boxing with a HW Toney, or a few rounds with a comparable sized version.

Toney would completely and utterly dominate him and waste him badly..

We are talking about a guy who knocked out Holyfield for christ sake!

Please note, the second part of my post applies ONLY to nut bag readers.

[Elroy1]

Yeah he doesn't like to be in prime real estate against a mover...Roy really took him to task on that one without a doubt.

You cannot compare what happened between Toney and Roy bloody Jones with a hypo against friggin Moore!

Unbelievable!



Roy KO Moore with the first connected shot