Miraculous Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe

[Mighty_Windir]

God bless ya man, I'm not catholic nor do I venerate the virgin Mary, but may God help you in your path to finding him.

[The Noose]

you should change your thread title to 'Atheists Please Attack Me Now'

lol. Too true.

agreed..if it brings them some positivity in their lives and they're not hurting anyone, then what's the big deal?

it's the life they enjoy


this lounge gets me sometimes...there are those that will argue with all their hearts for ****s and these SAME rights but then turn around and put down the religious folk in the next thread

Its not people being hypocrites, its people saying that rationale and reason is important. So they can argue ****phobia doesnt make sense, and also that belief in miracles doesnt make sense.

Its true, that in this case, belief in a miracle gives many people comfort, but its part of the same superstitious mind set that does harm through religion world wide. So its a small part of a much bigger issue.
I dont personally have any issue with this particular case, but i can understand why many would attack it with logic and reason no differently than they attack suicide bombers belief in paradise.

If it gives some people comfort to believe in The Virgin Mary and the Miraculous Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, then it's all good.

I'm not a Roman Catholic, but I respect it because I realize that people like Saint Vincent de Paul were inspired to do a lot of good in their lifetimes because of their belief.

I cant respect the Catholic church with all the thousands of abused children they are responsible for.
No matter how much good it has done.

[The Noose]

a lot of skeptics and nay sayers calling bs with nothing to back it up?

For me its just plausibility.
It makes no sense to me God makes a image appear in a small village somewhere as evidence he is real, when there are millions of people crying out for help, and not getting any.

People who already have faith will see it as a miracle, but everyone else see it is merely unexplained, and are indifferent.
So what was Gods purpose? To strengthen the faith of the faithful?

As for the scientific investigations... Were the research findings published in an international peer-reviewed journal ?

The image itself also yields evidence of considerable borrowing. It is a traditional portrait of Mary, replete with standard artistic motifs and in fact clearly derived from earlier Spanish paintings. Yet some proponents of the image have suggested that the obvious artistic elements were later additions and that the “original” portions-the face, hands, robe, and mantle-are therefore “inexplicable” and even “miraculous” (Callahan 1981).

Actually, infrared photographs show that the hands have been modified, and close-up photography shows that pigment has been applied to the highlight areas of the face sufficiently heavily so as to obscure the texture of the cloth. There is also obvious cracking and flaking of paint all along a vertical seam, and the infrared photos reveal in the robe’s fold what appear to be sketch lines, suggesting that an artist roughed out the figure before painting it. Portrait artist Glenn Taylor has pointed out that the part in the Virgin’s hair is off-center; that her eyes, including the irises, have outlines, as they often do in paintings, but not in nature, and that these outlines appear to have been done with a brush; and that much other evidence suggests the picture was probably copied by an inexpert artist from an expertly done original.

In fact, during a formal investigation of the cloth in 1556, it was stated that the image was “painted yesteryear by an Indian,” specifically “the Indian painter Marcos.” This was probably the Aztec painter Marcos Cipac de Aquino who was active in Mexico at the time the Image of Guadalupe appeared.

In 1985, forensic analyst John F. Fischer and I reported all of this evidence and more in “a folkloristic and iconographic investigation” of the Image of Guadalupe in Skeptical Inquirer. We also addressed some of the pseudoscience that the image has attracted. (For example, some claim to have discovered faces, including that of “Juan Diego” in the magnified weave of the Virgin’s eyes-evidence of nothing more than the pious imagination’s ability to perceive images, inkblot-like, in random shapes) (Nickell and Fischer 1985).

Recently our findings were confirmed when the Spanish-language magazine Proceso reported the results of a secret study of the Image of Guadalupe. It had been conducted - secretly - in 1982 by art restoration expert José Sol Rosales. Rosales examined the cloth with a stereomicroscope and observed that the canvas appeared to be a mixture of linen and hemp or cactus fiber. It had been prepared with a brush coat of white primer (calcium sulfate), and the image was then rendered in distemper (i.e., paint consisting of pigment, water, and a binding medium). The artist used a “very limited palette,” the expert stated, consisting of black (from pine soot), white, blue, green, various earth colors ("tierras”), reds (including carmine), and gold. Rosales concluded that the image did not originate supernaturally but was instead the work of an artist who used the materials and methods of the sixteenth century (El Vaticano 2002).

In addition, new scholarship (e.g. Brading 2001) suggests that, while the image was painted not long after the Spanish conquest and was alleged to have miraculous powers, the pious legend of Mary’s appearance to Juan Diego may date from the following century. Some Catholic scholars, including the former curator of the basilica Monsignor Guillermo Schulemburg, even doubt the historical existence of Juan Diego. Schulemburg said the canonization of Juan Diego would be the “recognition of a cult” (Nickell 1997).

[UTEP]

As a Mexican, one is raised celebrating and venerating "La Virgen de Guadalupe."

I have a book that goes into detail into the story and mystery surrounding her appearance and miracles. The link below does a good job at touching at some of these points. Reading something like this can awaken one's faith. It's nice to imagine it's all real. Just thought I'd share.

http://infallible-catholic.blogspot....r-lady-of.html






BULLET POINTS:



*The "Tilma" (a kind of cloak worn by native Mexicans) of Juan Diego that bears the miraculous Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a coarse fabric made from the threads of the maguey cactus fiber which usually lasts no more than 20 to 30 years, and yet the fabric has maintained its structural integrity - without cracking or fading, or any sign of deterioration for nearly 500 years.

*There is no explanation offered by NASA scientists on how the image was imprinted on the Tilma. There are no brush strokes, or sketch marks on it. The image also seems to increase in size and change colors owing to an unknown property of the surface and substance of which it is made.

*The colors actually float above the surface of the Tilma at a distance of 3/10th of a millimeter (1/100th of an inch), without touching it. When examined less than 10 inches of the image, one can only see the maguey cloth; the colors totally disappear.

*...No explanation was also offered by scientists as to why the Tilma is repellent to insects and dust.

*In 1936, biochemist Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, analyzed a sample of the fabric and ascertained that the pigments used were from no known source; whether natural, animal, mineral, or vegetable.

*After filtering and processing the digitized images to eliminate "noise" and enhance them, they discovered that portions of the face, hands, robe, and mantle had been painted in one step, with no sketches, or corrections, and no visible brush strokes or sizing used to render the surface smooth, no protective varnish covering the image to protect its surface. The Image changes in color slightly according to the angle of viewing, a phenomenon known as "Iridescence", a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands.

*Scientists were unable to find any trace of paint residue or dye of any sort on the Image and yet the the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance

*What produced the colors on Juan Diego's cloak or how they were applied remains a total mystery of science.

*The bluish-green color of Our Lady's mantle is unique. It seems to be made of an unearthly shade that as yet no artist has been able exactly to duplicate.

*On December 22, 1981, at the Observatory Laplace Mexico City, Father Mario Rojas and Dr. Juan Hernández Illescas, a medical doctor and amateur astronomer, performed an astronomical study of the Image and analyzed the stellar arrangement that appear in the Mantle of Our Lady. They surprisingly discovered that the stars stunningly and accurately map out the various constellations of the Mexican sky. Even more remarkable is the "star map" on the mantle is in the reverse (the cardinal axis rotated 90 degrees counterclockwise): providing a view of the constellations from beyond them, as would be seen looking through them towards the earth. The constellations are consistent with what astronomers believe was in the sky above Mexico City on the day the apparition occurred - in the winter-morning solstice of December 12, 1531, Saturday, at 10:26AM.



*It has also been found that by imposing a topographical map of central Mexico on the Our Lady's dress, the mountains, rivers, and principal lakes coincide with the decoration on the dress.

*According to the specialists of Kodak Corporation in Mexico, the Image is smooth and bears more resemblance to a color photograph than anything else. The Image has consistently defied exact reproduction, whether by brush or camera.

*Callahan and Smith further discovered that the Tilma maintains a constant temperature of 36.6º to 37º, (98.6 Fahrenheit) the same as the body of a living person.

*...all the optical imaging qualities of a normal human eye, such as light reflection, image positioning, and distortion on the cornea which are impossible to obtain on a flat surface. When the eye of Our Lady is exposed to light, the retina contracts, and when the light is withdrawn, it returns to a dilated state, just as happens with a living eye.

*In 1991, an analysis made by outstanding ophthalmologists, identified normal microscopic network of veins and artery circulation in the free edge of Our Lady's eyelids and the cornea. According to the ophthalmologists who examined the eyes, no painter would have been able to humanly reproduce such precise microscopic details.

*.....In summary, the Our Lady's eyes bear a kind of instant picture of what actually occurred at the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop and other witnesses on December 9, 1531.

*A stethoscope was placed below the black band at the waist of Our Lady (a sign that she is pregnant) and heard rhythmic repeating heartbeats at 115 beats per minute, the same as that of a baby in the maternal womb.

*In 1789, Dr. José Ignácio Bartolache had two copies of the image painted on an identical piece of maguey cloth using the best techniques of that time and placed them in the same salty and humid environment around the Basilica. After several decades, the two replicas disintegrated.

*An attempt to "embellish" the Tilma was made which also proved futile: a crown was painted on Our Lady’s head and angels in the clouds. However, unlike the Tilma, these additions have faded away and are no longer visible.

*In August 7, 2009, researcher and physicist Dr. Aldofo Orozco told participants...no scientific explanation for the 478 years of high quality-preservation of the Tilma, or for the miracles of its preservation.

*One of the most bizarre characteristics of the cloth is that the back side is rough and coarse, but the front side is as soft as the most pure silk

*An analysis of the fibers in 1946 concluded that the fibers came from the Agave plant, however, researchers could not figure out which of the 175 Agave species the Tilma was made from.

*On November 14, 1921, a bomb with 29 sticks of dynamite was planted by Luciano Perez, a Spanish anarchist, in a flower arrangement on the altar under the Tilma which exploded and broke the marble altar rail, the marble floor and widows 150 meters from the explosion, but unexpectedly, neither the Tilma nor the normal glass that protected the image was damaged or broken. The only damage near the Tilma was a heavy brass crucifix twisted by the blast.

Great post, we need more threads like this in the lounge.

[squealpiggy]

The tilma is an outright fraud. Plenty of them exist in the shady world of religious relics.

[I Love Jesus!]

The tilma is an outright fraud. Plenty of them exist in the shady world of religious relics.

oh bullcrap its only a fraud because it doesn't fit your agenda. just like the conspiracy theorist who takes any evidence to the contrary and labels it disinformation and further proof of the conspiracy. thats you

[The Noose]

I don't think the abuse had anything to do with their being Roman Catholic.

There's nothing in the Catholic religion that instructs people to abuse children. It had to do with some people being pedophiles.

However, I do think the good deeds had everything to do with the religion, because Christ taught people to help the poor and needy.

Do you respect gay couples, even though they have been known to abuse their adopted children?

Gay couple sexually abuse adopted Russian boy, make videos

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...loitation.html

Gay couple abuse 9-year-old adopted son

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4466062.html

It wasnt a few paedophile priests though was it. It was a huge, deliberate and well publicised cover up by the Vatican that enabled the priests to repeatedly offend.
Its the Catholic church as an authoritarian hierarchy that makes this possible; The priest is able to use his authority to gain access to peoples homes, spend time with their children and gain families trust, then when abuse happens he is able to keep them quiet, then the church is able to cover it up.
Its the institute itself and its system which enables child abuse to happen on such a massive scale and for so long.

How that compares to gay couples abusing children i dont know. Straight couples have also abused the children they have adopted. What is your point?

I can respect a person for doing a good deed and give them credit, and if they were inspired by their faith, ok.
But i cant respect the catholic church as an organisation.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Question, why was my post deleted?

LOL, I posted a study done in 82 and 85 that showed it's a fraud.


END THREAD

[I Hate Thugs!]

Why do mexicans worship her more than Jesus when in the ten commandments it prohibits it? Also, a lot of mexicans seem to think that Mary was mexican....dont they know she was Jewish? SMH

Is any mexican going to reply to this post? Come on ese's, let's hear it.....

[squealpiggy]

I cant respect the Catholic church with all the thousands of abused children they are responsible for.
No matter how much good it has done.

Not to mention the inquisition in which tens of thousands of people were tortured and murdered for heresy and the crusades which caused the death of tens of thousands more for the sake of holy conquest.

oh bullcrap its only a fraud because it doesn't fit your agenda. just like the conspiracy theorist who takes any evidence to the contrary and labels it disinformation and further proof of the conspiracy. thats you

No, it's fraud because it is fraudulent.

http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/miracu..._of_guadalupe/

The Catholic church maintains dozens of such frauds around the world, in order to dupe uneducated populations and keep them under the control of the auspices of the church.