Would Pacquiao-Bradley III crown a Lineal Welterweight Champion?

[Kagami Taiga]

It's shouldn't. The picture at 147 is so murky right now I don't see how there's a clear cut #1 or #2.

[Pigeons]

It's shouldn't. The picture at 147 is so murky right now I don't see how there's a clear cut #1 or #2.

Brook, Thurman, even Porter have potential, but they haven't really done much in the division outside of their top win. Pacquiao and Bradley are established names that have been beating top 10 names in the divisions for years. The top 10 shouldn't be rated on potential, but accomplishments. I think it's clear that Pacquiao and Bradley are the two most accomplished WWs.

Brook may very well beat Bradley in a head-to-head matchup, but has he done more than Bradley at WW? I don't think so. He has just one notable victory on his resume. Thurman may very well beat Pacquiao in a head-to-head matchup, but is his resume of Chaves, Guerrero, and Collazo worth more than Pacquiao's run in the division? I don't think so.

[Larry the boss]

Brook, Thurman, even Porter have potential, but they haven't really done much in the division outside of their top win. Pacquiao and Bradley are established names that have been beating top 10 names in the divisions for years. The top 10 shouldn't be rated on potential, but accomplishments. I think it's clear that Pacquiao and Bradley are the two most accomplished WWs.

Brook may very well beat Bradley in a head-to-head matchup, but has he done more than Bradley at WW? I don't think so. He has just one notable victory on his resume. Thurman may very well beat Pacquiao in a head-to-head matchup, but is his resume of Chaves, Guerrero, and Collazo worth more than Pacquiao's run in the division? I don't think so.

well i have to add this Bradley and Manny have not really been fighting ww's at all lately


Manny last 3 fights

Floyd-loss against the top ww
win against Algeri-0 fights at ww
win against Rios=0 fights at ww


Bradley last 3

Rios-not a top 10 ww.accomplished nothing at ww
Jessie Vargas=unranked at ww
Chaves=draw against a someone who hasnt done anything at ww




while i say they are the most accomplished,they really have not been figting ww's on a regular basis

[Pigeons]

well i have to add this Bradley and Manny have not really been fighting ww's at all lately


Manny last 3 fights

Floyd-loss against the top ww
win against Algeri-0 fights at ww
win against Rios=0 fights at ww


Bradley last 3

Rios-not a top 10 ww.accomplished nothing at ww
Chavez=draw against a someone who hasnt done anything at ww
Manny-loss



while i say they are the most accomplished,they really have not been figting ww's on a regular basis

Pacquiao last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 3-2
#1 WW Mayweather (decision loss)
#3 JWW Algieri
#2 WW Bradley
NR Rios
#7 JWW Marquez (knockout loss)

Bradley's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 3-1-1
#10 WW Rios
#7 JWW Vargas
NR Chaves (draw)
#4 WW Pacquiao (decision loss)
#2 WW Marquez

Brook's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 5-0
NR Gavin
NR Dan
#6 WW Porter
NR Robles
NR Senchenko

Thurman's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 5-0
NR Collazo
NR Guerrero
NR Bundu
NR Diaz
NR Karass

Porter's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 4-1
#9 JWW Broner
NR Bone
#9 WW Brook (decision loss)
#10 WW Malignaggi
#6 WW Alexander

Khan's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 5-0
#3 JWW Algieri
#9 WW Alexander
NR Collazo
NR Diaz
NR Molina @ JWW

Alright I'm done nerding out for the night.

[jose.sooto]

I must be missing something because i just don't see how can people see Tim Bradley as an elite welterweight? last time i checked his last three opponents where fckin bum bum rios, jesse vergas and diego chaves, before that he arguably lost to Pac twice, went life and death with carreer 140er Ruslan, got decisions over carreer 135er JMM and shot to pieces Joel Casamayor...i give you Luis Carlos Abregu, i believe that is Tim's best W at the 147 division since Abregu was an actual undefeated full fledged welter at the time Bradley beat him.

How does that resume equal to being an elite welterweight? sht just doesnt add up to me

[_original_]

Nope. Manny is coming off a wide loss and it would be versus a guy he's 2-0 against who hasn't beaten an elite WW himself unless you want to count a blown up Marquez. This isn't to say that Khan, Thurman, Brook, Porter, ect. have a stronger case, l think the devision is wide open.

[_original_]

The concept of "lineal" champions is only effective if you have a starting point for the lineage that most, if not all, can agree on.

Ideally, after a champion retires or leaves the weight class, someone will eventually unify all of the belts, become undisputed champion, and so begins a new lineage since the entire boxing world agreed on one champion.

But nobody has managed to put together all four belts since Hopkins did it a decade ago. During the 3 belt era, "undisputed" champions were fairly common. You'd usually have at least one or two of them at all times, if not more. In the 4 belt era, "undisputed champions" don't exist. We haven't had even one undisputed champion since the WBO gained full recognition.

So the only way to really start a new lineage that anyone takes seriously is some sort of unification fight. A few boxing nerds will insist we have a new "lineal champion" if Bradley fights Pacquiao, but to the average fan, there will be 4 champions and nobody will have done anything to set themselves apart as the new clear cut champion of the world to replace Floyd.

Very good points, it's all just too messy and unclear now to establish a lineal champ with 10 belts, promoter issues, network problems, ect. Even tracing it back gets a little unclear. For instance at 160; it's Hopkins < JT < Pavlik < Martinez < Cotto < Canelo? It just does' t make sense since he doesn't fight at the full weight and hasn't beaten the man at the division.

[crold1]

I'm not interested in this fight, I'd much rather see Pacquiao-Crawford, but for discussion's sake, would Pacquiao-Bradley III crown a Lineal Welterweight Champion?

Mayweather vacated his lineal WW crown when he retired in September. Currently, Pacquiao and Bradley are rated as the #1 and #2 WWs according to the following rankings:
TBRB http://www.tbrb.org/all-rankings/
ESPN http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id...s-welterweight
BoxingScene http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/vi...boxing-ratings
PBO (formerly IWBR): http://premierboxingorganisation.com/welterweight-147

Other rankings do not list them as the #1 and #2 WWs:
RING (Pacquiao #2, Bradley #4): ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings/welterweight
FightN*ws (Bradley #1, Pacquiao #3): fightnews.com/rankings-2
BoxRec (Pacquiao #1, Bradley #4): http://boxrec.com/records?sex=m&division=Welterweight

Fighters that would have an argument for top 2? Brook: Best win is Porter. Thurman: Best win is Guerrero. Khan: Best win is Alexander. Porter: Best win is Broner. I don't think these guys have the depth in their resumes to equal Pacquiao (Algieri, Bradley, Rios, Marquez, Mosley, Clottey, Cotto) or Bradley (Rios, Vargas, Chaves, Marquez, Provodnikov, Pacquiao).

What do you guys think? Hopefully crold1 can chime in.

TBRB has them 1-2 so yes there (I have a lot of input there but so do many others). The site ratings here have them 1-2 so the winner would be barring Brook moving up. I don't think there would any sort of universal claim for the time being even with that. There is not a clear 1-2 in class.

In other words, yes in some places but whoever won would have to beat someone else to bring the rest of the crowd.

[Pigeons]

TBRB has them 1-2 so yes there (I have a lot of input there but so do many others). The site ratings here have them 1-2 so the winner would be barring Brook moving up. I don't think there would any sort of universal claim for the time being even with that. There is not a clear 1-2 in class.

In other words, yes in some places but whoever won would have to beat someone else to bring the rest of the crowd.

Thanks for the input, Cliff. A lot of fans will see it as a disputed lineage, but the other contenders at the weight have been seldom tested and do not have the accomplishments of Pacquiao or Bradley to be ranked above them. If this fight comes off, it will be nice to see Bradley get a crack at a lineal crown.

[Larry the boss]

Pacquiao last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 3-2
#1 WW Mayweather (decision loss)
#3 JWW Algieri
#2 WW Bradley
NR Rios
#7 JWW Marquez (knockout loss)

Bradley's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 3-1-1
#10 WW Rios
#7 JWW Vargas
NR Chaves (draw)
#4 WW Pacquiao (decision loss)
#2 WW Marquez

Brook's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 5-0
NR Gavin
NR Dan
#6 WW Porter
NR Robles
NR Senchenko

Thurman's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 5-0
NR Collazo
NR Guerrero
NR Bundu
NR Diaz
NR Karass

Porter's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 4-1
#9 JWW Broner
NR Bone
#9 WW Brook (decision loss)
#10 WW Malignaggi
#6 WW Alexander

Khan's last 5 opponents rankings according to TBRB before fight: 5-0
#3 JWW Algieri
#9 WW Alexander
NR Collazo
NR Diaz
NR Molina @ JWW

Alright I'm done nerding out for the night.

Yep the rest are not proven and Manny and Bradley have not exactly been fighting top ww's