Let's be honest here....Manny took human growth hormone right?...Reasonable debate.

[Shpacman]

Yet somehow im supposed to suspend belief that a fighter without those amateur credentials, whose country doesnt produce top talent, who was KOd cold twice by journeymen early in his career, somehow began peaking in his late 20's/early 30's to become one of the best p4p WITHOUT PEDS?? This isnt ****ing sci-fi. You can believe what you want, this is the smoking gun for me. Ive been watching boxing far too long to cosign such naivety.

Pacquiao fought top competition from the early parts of his career so it's not like he appeared from a nowhere on the top.

[AddiX]

simply put, if you are not taking performance enhancing drugs, why are you concerned with cut off dates

bottom line....i would have took that ass whooping for that kind of coin and took a test right before the fight...it does not require much blood to test it

I agree...

But manny at least did VADA in his career, which Floyd never did.

You can literally see the bumps in Floyds stomach from the HGH shots.

They were both on PEDs, there is no doubt about it IMO. I don't care either, let them all use PEDs.

Fighters on PEDs are more exciting.

[sunny31]

Not coherent? No olympians since 1992 (Bronze. Nothing higher than a Bronze in boxing.). No amateur standouts.

The best of the last few generation s have ALL had standout amateur careers AND olympic pedigree. FMJ, Roy Jones, Pernell whitaker, Sugar Ray, Oscar, Andre Ward, Holyfiled.. there arent too many without that pedigree.

Yet somehow im supposed to suspend belief that a fighter without those amateur credentials, whose country doesnt produce top talent, who was KOd cold twice by journeymen early in his career, somehow began peaking in his late 20's/early 30's to become one of the best p4p WITHOUT PEDS?? This isnt ****ing sci-fi. You can believe what you want, this is the smoking gun for me. Ive been watching boxing far too long to cosign such naivety.

How many mexican's have been successful in the olympics or amateur, can you even get reliable data? The Philippines breed pro's like a lot of countries.

You are bringing two different arguments to the table as well, so peaking late in his career, that is different, and I am more inclined to agree there, but that doesn't fit the other argument that you are trying to put forward here, in fact it contradicts it slightly, because he would be more likely to peak later if he didn't have a proper amateur pedigree and a proper trainer from early in his career.

Despite proper belief, he was also actually flyweight world champion at the age of 19 so the talent was definitely there from the beginning. It is not far fetched to believe proper training/trainer would take him much further being a bit of a rough diamond.

The one thing we do agree on is his career from 2008 is more than suspicious.

[Butt stuff]

I will give you the chuck if there are anymore accusations. I have been on NSB since you were playing in your mum's womb so either stay on topic or get out, will it by force or by choice?

Is it annoying having to log out of one account and into another or do you just use different browsers?

P.S. I didn't play in the womb, I was an a$$ baby. Was born out the poop shoot

[sunny31]

after reading your unoriginal topic, you think im gonna read the unoriginal responses?

Go away then - why waste your time.

Stick to the topics which interest you.

[Larry the boss]

Im curious as to where you stand on this nowadays.

Honestly i think he clearly was on something, but he is clearly not the only one. I think there is a lot of **** that goes on behind the scenes with rich people... it is what it is

[-MAKAVELLI-]

Go away then - why waste your time.

Stick to the topics which interest you.

i didnt waste time...i felt the need to tell you how unoriginal your topic was...

[RussB23]

Most people will berate you about this thread, saying it has been done to death etc... but I disagree, I think there are interesting points to discuss around the subject matter... I class myself as an honest, scientifically minded individual... and I no longer view boxing with a bias... as I only watch for the interest in good fights, and not to be a fanboy of certain fighter.
Off the bat I will go on record and say, without admission, we would never be able to give an answer that is without argument either way... (which is why some people would rather not discuss it... bit of a fools errand) but if we are to make and individual judgement, then a discussion of the arguments for both sides can make for a good platform.
Now, to state my position, I would have to say I personally believe he was juicing at some point.... what exactly he was taking and for how long, I wouldn't claim to know... but there are a lot of signs that indicate he was.
I think that without performance enhancers, he was still a solid fighter that legitimately won a lot of fights and would have been a good champion either way... but I think performance enhancers took him to a level he wouldn't have reached otherwise....
One of the points you brought up, that I find one of the more interesting as an argument for the case (and one that is very difficult to argue against), was how there were a number of fights where the shear volume of activity of explosive movement/actions, that occurred without slowdown or visual signs of fatigue, were in my opinion beyond the abilities of someone who is clean of performance enhancers. I like to say, if you look at Manny in those periods where he was throwing 1000+ hard punches (as well as moving around the ring non-stop), you would say he is the complete opposite of how you would advise someone to box for a 12 round period, because if they did, their muscles would be so fatigued and starved of oxygen, they would not make it to the final bell... yet Manny would not only make it to the final bell, he would do it all without looking like it was any effort at all... I mean we are talking consistent activity over every minute of every round... without ever looking like he was out of breath... the mind boggles. It is also quite a solid argument, just because you can almost pinpoint the moment it became apparent... if you watch him before '06, even though he was a fighter that threw a lot of shots and showed a lot of activity in terms of movement etc, he would gas... he would get visibly tired and would show it... after '06 (give or take a year, these dates are being pulled from memory and are prone to error), to my eye, he stopped showing fatigue and was able to sustain energy levels beyond what we had seen before... and then in around '11/'12 he began to look human again, and would begin to visibly slow down and fatigue over the course of 12 round fights... that could be argued to be age... but why did he have this strange 5 or so year period (after his natural biological peak) where he looked like he could never tire?
But yeah, add to that all of the other strange indicators... (his unnaturally large hands and head, his odd behaviour when prompted to take certain drug testing for a career high pay day [that came with strange excuses that seemingly changed by the week]) and all of it really does build a strong enough case for one to at least be highly suspicious.
Again, we can't really know for certain, but yeah, I am almost convinced that something wasn't quite legit.

He was probably on EPO and testosterone.

[therealpugilist]

I agree...

But manny at least did VADA in his career, which Floyd never did.

You can literally see the bumps in Floyds stomach from the HGH shots.

They were both on PEDs, there is no doubt about it IMO. I don't care either, let them all use PEDs.

Fighters on PEDs are more exciting.

what is it with you guys bringing up floyd

these guys are not joined at the hip.

Mayweather was in the public eye and a big name fighter before anyone could pronounce Manny's last name

stay on topic

regardless of the method, why avoid testing if you are not trying to cycle it out? If you're not cheating take the test.....period

[Chrismart]

I don't believe he was. No more so than i would believe any other fighter out there was anyway.