Daily Protein Intake Averages...Too high? The American Case...

[jaded]

Well, English is my second language so that might be the wrong term. But I know what happens to protein when ingested. So, what are you meaning with "it's wasted"? It passes right through your system or the protein in excess of 1kg/kg bodyweight turns into energy?

There are plenty of studies to support the theory that a higher protein intake results in greater muscle gains. Testing things out yourself is good, but it's very tough to really know what effect it had because there are so many other variables involved. I'd rather see the results gathered from groups of people monitored by professionals, and those results should definitely be the ones general guidelines are based upon. Not personal experience.

Wasted as in...waste product ie: the stuff you flush down the toilet...ever notice how quickly you need to go to the bathroom after a protein shake?

My personal experience may not mean much to you...but your personal experience is all you need to know what works and how you feel...I encourage you to see for yourself and test things out.

btw...I linked up a couple of studies in this post...check them out if you want a more formal and scientific approach/opinion.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=16

[Bring It On]

Wasted as in...waste product ie: the stuff you flush down the toilet...ever notice how quickly you need to go to the bathroom after a protein shake?

My personal experience may not mean much to you...but your personal experience is all you need to know what works and how you feel...I encourage you to see for yourself and test things out.

btw...I linked up a couple of studies in this post...check them out if you want a more formal and scientific approach/opinion.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=16

Ok, then that's just not true. The majority of the protein not utilized in protein synthesis will be converted into glucose through glycogenesis.

How can you know what resulted in those gains/changes though? There are sooo many valuables. Unless you're testing something with extreme effects, like high doses of testosterone, it'll be hard to really know what caused the changes. Increasing your protein intake from a reasonable level won't have that effect.

I saw that study, and they ate 170kj/kg/day which is a pretty high caloric intake. I can buy that 1,35 is enough then. If the study was performed during weight loss the results would've probably been different though. The more calories you eat, the less protein you need.

EDIT: Also, I obviously didn't read the entire study so, how fat were they? These recommendation are often based on LBM or at least persons with low bf%.

[jaded]

Ok, then that's just not true. The majority of the protein not utilized in protein synthesis will be converted into glucose through glycogenesis.

How can you know what resulted in those gains/changes though? There are sooo many valuables. Unless you're testing something with extreme effects, like high doses of testosterone, it'll be hard to really know what caused the changes. Increasing your protein intake from a reasonable level won't have that effect.

I saw that study, and they ate 170kj/kg/day which is a pretty high caloric intake. I can buy that 1,35 is enough then. If the study was performed during weight loss the results would've probably been different though. The more calories you eat, the less protein you need.

EDIT: Also, I obviously didn't read the entire study so, how fat were they? These recommendation are often based on LBM or at least persons with low bf%.

The majority of the protein not utilized in protein synthesis will be converted into glucose through glycogenesis

Moot point...Gluconeogenesis from protein will only happen when there is not enough glucose available...if you have adequate carbs in your diet this will never occur...you simply will waste excess amounts of protein in and from your body.

How can you know what resulted in those gains/changes though? There are sooo many valuables.

I find the best way as said is to gauge your changes in terms of strength and stamina...and the overall feeling of improved or compromised health...your body never lies.

[Bring It On]

The majority of the protein not utilized in protein synthesis will be converted into glucose through glycogenesis

Moot point...Gluconeogenesis from protein will only happen when there is not enough glucose available...if you have adequate carbs in your diet this will never occur...you simply will waste excess amounts of protein in and from your body.

How can you know what resulted in those gains/changes though? There are sooo many valuables.

I find the best way as said is to gauge your changes in terms of strength and stamina...and the overall feeling of improved or compromised health...your body never lies.

Protein oxidation always occurs when eating a normal diet, not all protein is utilized in protein synthesis. If we don't agree on that, I don't think we'll get any further.

It's obviously less when consuming less protein and more carbs, then the other way around, but it still occurs.

[Banderivets]

Every bag of rice I buy states somewhere around 8-9g/100g. Of course you don't eat them primarily for the protein, but it adds up. 100g isn't much.

Maybe your right, my sources told me otherwise.

Oh really? Please show me all this research. In the study jaded posted by mistake you could read this for example:

I will look it up later, but the basic principle is that you do piss out excess protein, meaning your kidneys had to process it, meaning unneeded stress on the organ.

It is known that people with kidney problems need to watch their protein intake, I forgot the reason but its probably because it is not easy to breakdown.

Even if protein does not cause kidney damage, you still piss out the excess. Meaning there is no need for it, so why consume that amount it in the first place?

[Bring It On]

Maybe your right, my sources told me otherwise.




I will look it up later, but the basic principle is that you do piss out excess protein, meaning your kidneys had to process it, meaning unneeded stress on the organ.

It is known that people with kidney problems need to watch their protein intake, I forgot the reason but its probably because it is not easy to breakdown.

Even if protein does not cause kidney damage, you still piss out the excess. Meaning there is no need for it, so why consume that amount it in the first place?

No, you do not piss any significant amount of protein. If you do, you have a problem.

You piss out nitrogen which are released from the proteins when ingested. Basically, if you piss less nitrogen then you take it (with your protein) you're probably gaining muscle mass, and the other way around.

You do not piss out protein not used for protein synthesis. Protein not utilized in protein synthesis is for the most part turned into energy of some sort (glycogen etc). If I eat 500g of protein, I will not piss out 400g of protein the next day.

[jaded]

Protein oxidation always occurs when eating a normal diet, not all protein is utilized in protein synthesis. If we don't agree on that, I don't think we'll get any further.

It's obviously less when consuming less protein and more carbs, then the other way around, but it still occurs.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here...and how this becomes a foundation for this discussion. Protein oxidation in muscle foods is what is know as...the spoiling or rotting of protein foods...this generally starts before the food is even eaten and quickly accelerates thereafter. And yes not all protein is utilized in protein synthesis...I've been stressing that later point in all my posts.

No, you do not piss any significant amount of protein. If you do, you have a problem.

You piss out nitrogen which are released from the proteins when ingested. Basically, if you piss less nitrogen then you take it (with your protein) you're probably gaining muscle mass, and the other way around.

You piss out all unused protein...you do not piss nitrogen as it's a gas : hence the expression protein farts. You can only retain so much nitrogen...steroids enhance this capability.

[/I]You do not piss out protein not used for protein synthesis. Protein not utilized in protein synthesis is for the most part turned into energy of some sort (glycogen etc). If I eat 500g of protein, I will not piss out 400g of protein the next day.[/I]

Protein conversion to glycogen (gluconeogenesis) only occurs as a last resort when no sugars or stored fats are available to create glycogen. It is much harder for you body to create glycogen from protein than from carbs (sugar) or stored fats (converted sugar). You are right about not pissing out 400 grams of protein the next day...you will piss it out within hours. This point is not lost on anyone who has ever drank 3-5 protein shakes a day along with there normal diet.

You are just grabbing arguments out of the air that have no foundation and turning this into a pissing contest.

This culture of success through supplementation dates back to the snake oil salesman and the traveling carnival. Today people get there information from bodybuilding forums that make there money from selling the supplements and readers live on the advice from spokesman bodybuilders who for the most part earn there livings as salesmen for the suppliers. There is some truth to the info out there...but there is a lot of misinformation coming from a completely unregulated industry with a strong govt. lobbying organization in Utah. Buyer beware.

[Bring It On]

A normal collection of urine over 24 hours contains less then 150mg of protein, as stated here:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/003580.htm

It also states just what I've been saying all along:

"Normally, protein is not found in urine when a routine dipstick test is performed. This is because the kidney is supposed to keep large molecules, such as protein, in the blood and only filter out smaller impurities. Even if small amounts of protein do get through, they are normally reabsorbed by the body and used as a source of energy."


Are you serious trying to say that a human being would piss out 400g of protein within hours, in what, 2-3dl or urine? How on earth would that piss look like?

EDIT: And WHAT? You do not piss nitrogen?

"Urine contains large quan****** of nitrogen (mostly as urea)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine


Are you taking the piss? (no pun intended)

[jaded]

A normal collection of urine over 24 hours contains less then 150mg of protein, as stated here:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/003580.htm

It also states just what I've been saying all along:

"Normally, protein is not found in urine when a routine dipstick test is performed. This is because the kidney is supposed to keep large molecules, such as protein, in the blood and only filter out smaller impurities. Even if small amounts of protein do get through, they are normally reabsorbed by the body and used as a source of energy."


Are you serious trying to say that a human being would piss out 400g of protein within hours, in what, 2-3dl or urine? How on earth would that piss look like?

EDIT: And WHAT? You do not piss nitrogen?

"Urine contains large quan****** of nitrogen (mostly as urea)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine

right...a normal sample will contain a typical amount of protein consumption...not 500 grams daily. A normal quantity will be 100% metabolized and not wasted.

[Bring It On]

right...a normal sample will contain a typical amount of protein consumption...not 500 grams daily.

OK, so let me get this straight:

1) Most patients eat no more then 150mg over 1g protein/kg bodyweight?

2) The National Library of Medicine, a part of the National Institutes of Health are talking BS when writing:

Normally, protein is not found in urine when a routine dipstick test is performed. This is because the kidney is supposed to keep large molecules, such as protein, in the blood and only filter out smaller impurities. Even if small amounts of protein do get through, they are normally reabsorbed by the body and used as a source of energy.

?

3) Do Human beings still not piss nitrogen?

4) Again, are you really saying that I'd piss out 400g of pure protein withing hours after ingestion?