dundee on the myth of thrila in manila nd foreman-ali 2

[led]

full interview here: source: http://www.tacomaweekly.com/article/4794

note: JS is the interviewer

J.S: So many people continue to talk and debate about Ali fights. On the web site forums, the fans still argue about certain things. For one example, to this day, some people still say you loosened the ropes before that epic fight in Zaire, with George Foreman. I know you’ve been asked about that a million times, but can you tell me - did you loosen the ropes or not?

A.D: Isn’t it wonderful that people are still curious? I love that, because it means we’re still here. No, what happened was, I went to Kinshasa - we were 45-minutes away in Nsele, staying in a villa - and I went to the arena that day at 4P.M, and I tried to tighten the ropes, Bobby Goodman and I. They were 24-foot ropes for a 20-foot ring. It wasn’t easy, but we tightened them, not figuring on the heat in Zaire. The fight wasn’t until 4A.M the next morning, and the heat loosened the ropes again. I never wanted Muhammad to lie on the ropes; as a matter of fact, I whacked him on his butt whenever he lay on the ropes near the corner. That ring was six-foot off the ground, and I was worried Foreman would hit him in the chest and knock him out of the ring. If that had happened, the fight would’ve been over.

J.S: Of all Ali’s great wins, was that one of his absolute best?

A.D: Oh, God yes. But the best of all was the win over Sonny Liston. He was the baddest man on the planet, and no-one gave my kid a chance going in. That one was special.

J.S: Fans often say one of the great rematches never to happen was Ali-Foreman II. What would’ve happened had they met in, say, 1976 or ’77?

A.D: Well, certain people beat certain people. This happens all the time in boxing, you’ve seen it. Actually, the old George Foreman would’ve given Ali a tougher fight. But the young George, with his wild swings, my guy would’ve beaten him all night.

J.S: You say the old Foreman would’ve done better against Ali. Is that because George was more relaxed and patient at that age?

A.D: Yeah. He was relaxed, steady and he would grind you down - just like he did to Michael Moorer, when he won the title back.

J.S: But Ali would still have beaten the old Foreman?

A.D: That style, yeah.

J.S: You must have seen all the recent books and documentaries about “The Thrilla in Manila,” with fans still loving that sensational action fight. What do you say to those people who believe Ali would not have been able to come out for that 15th-round against Joe Frazier. Did Ali in fact say to you at the end of the 14th, “cut ’em off?”

A.D: No, that’s not true. People get confused, and they’re getting confused with the Liston fight. My guy told me, “cut the gloves off, I wanna prove there’s dirty work afoot!” I said, no gloves, no fight! But in Manila, no. Ali had such a great 14th-round, why on earth would I stop the fight in the 15th? I’ve seen those documentaries, and I see faces on there of people, who weren’t even there at the fight! George Kimball, a good friend of mine, he’s going to write a piece on the fight, with all the people and writers and everything, who were there. I look forward to that article.

J.S: Joe Frazier still maintains that, as blind as he was himself, Ali was more exhausted and had nothing left to go that last round.

A.D: Ali could’ve gone all night. Where he got his reserves from I don’t know. But he always had those reserves. He was a little bit special. One time I saw him get decked in sparring. He got whacked on the chin, but as soon as his butt hit the canvas he woke up and he got up. I knew then I had a great fighter to work with.

[bojangles1987]

Good read, appreciated.

[Barn]

Good read, appreciated.

I second this again led.

I didn't know the facts surrounding the ropes, Thanks.

[hhascup]

I am sorry that I haven't been on for a while as I am running to Tournament, with 300 boxers, and also running NJ Boxing Hall of Fame.

When I saw the name of Bobby Goodman, I wrote him to get his take on it. Here's what he wrote back.

Henry:

In Zaire -- I had to pick up all of the equipment, including the training equipment shipped in by plane from Everlast. We had the speed bag racks,
the heavy bag, a double-end bag and various other equipment. We had already fashioned a ring for the gym which they could work in. Don't forget we were there months before the fight to set up and Ali and Foreman were going to train down there for about a month. Everlast also shipped me a brand new ring with the "Ensaflor" padding, steps and new ropes, corner pads, etc. I had to go with a military crew and military truck to pick up the equipment directly from the plane on the tarmack.

I took all the equipment for the gym, which was being set up at N'sele (like a Camp David type set-up on the Zaire River (a.k.a. Congo). I took my time and with a local military crew, erected the gym from scratch. We sent the new 24' X 24' ring and all that equipment pertaining to the ring to the Stadium in Kinshasa (about 30 minutes away). We also left them instructions to keep the ring and equipment in an air conditioned storage area.

It was the day of the fight and Angelo and myself, as was our normal tradition, went over to inspect the ring. They had already put down the padding and put up the ropes, which I had previously asked them not to do, because in all that heat and humidity, the padding would get "spongy" and the new ropes, would stretch out (which they had). The turnbuckles didn't have any more slack to take up in the ropes, so we got a screwdriver and a couple of razor blades and some tape and went to work. We undid the connections on each new rope, taking up sufficient rope with each turnbuckle opened wide, leaving some room to stretch out more, reconnected the ends of the ropes with the clamps on all four ropes and cut off the excess by sawing them off with the razor blades. At this stage, we made sure all of the ropes were properly lined up and just barely hand-tightened the ropes with a little slack. We told the people at the Stadium to leave them like that until the start of the show, since we now had plenty of room to tighten as they stretched out. Of course, we're in Zaire and they hadn't listened and tightened the ropes up more. And by the way -- Dick Saddler, Sandy Saddler, and Archie Moore from the Foreman camp were sitting there, watching Angelo and I sweat to death fixing the ring, and not one of them even tried to help.

The fights wouldn't start until early in the morning so they would be sitting there tightened up and would stretch out more, which they did. The padding of course was like mush and certainly wouldn't translate to Ali being able to do too much dancing without his legs getting exhausted.

By the time we got to the Stadium, the fights were starting and they took up even more slack on the turnbuckles. By the time Ali and Foreman were ready to go in -- there wasn't much room at all left to tighten up on the turnbuckles, which they had been tightening during the prelims.

After a round or two, Angelo and the Ali corner were running around the corners trying to take up the slack on the ropes, and Ali was now saying to leave them alone. He realized the ring was too spongy, but the slack ropes, would let him lean back and have Foreman miss with his big swings, and expelling his energy.

It was uncanny how quickly Ali made the adjustment that conditions dictated. He was something very special. Special indeed. The many years I spent around him were precious.

[Anthony342]

Wow great story and great additional story. Thanks for posting. Interesting stuff.

[carlos slim]

nice story i remember how they actually tried to tighten the ropes before the fight....ali adjusted beautifully most fighters would neva be able to switch there best style up like that in the heat of the moment....

[PEBBLES!]

I am sorry that I haven't been on for a while as I am running to Tournament, with 300 boxers, and also running NJ Boxing Hall of Fame.

When I saw the name of Bobby Goodman, I wrote him to get his take on it. Here's what he wrote back.

Henry:

In Zaire -- I had to pick up all of the equipment, including the training equipment shipped in by plane from Everlast. We had the speed bag racks,
the heavy bag, a double-end bag and various other equipment. We had already fashioned a ring for the gym which they could work in. Don't forget we were there months before the fight to set up and Ali and Foreman were going to train down there for about a month. Everlast also shipped me a brand new ring with the "Ensaflor" padding, steps and new ropes, corner pads, etc. I had to go with a military crew and military truck to pick up the equipment directly from the plane on the tarmack.

I took all the equipment for the gym, which was being set up at N'sele (like a Camp David type set-up on the Zaire River (a.k.a. Congo). I took my time and with a local military crew, erected the gym from scratch. We sent the new 24' X 24' ring and all that equipment pertaining to the ring to the Stadium in Kinshasa (about 30 minutes away). We also left them instructions to keep the ring and equipment in an air conditioned storage area.

It was the day of the fight and Angelo and myself, as was our normal tradition, went over to inspect the ring. They had already put down the padding and put up the ropes, which I had previously asked them not to do, because in all that heat and humidity, the padding would get "spongy" and the new ropes, would stretch out (which they had). The turnbuckles didn't have any more slack to take up in the ropes, so we got a screwdriver and a couple of razor blades and some tape and went to work. We undid the connections on each new rope, taking up sufficient rope with each turnbuckle opened wide, leaving some room to stretch out more, reconnected the ends of the ropes with the clamps on all four ropes and cut off the excess by sawing them off with the razor blades. At this stage, we made sure all of the ropes were properly lined up and just barely hand-tightened the ropes with a little slack. We told the people at the Stadium to leave them like that until the start of the show, since we now had plenty of room to tighten as they stretched out. Of course, we're in Zaire and they hadn't listened and tightened the ropes up more. And by the way -- Dick Saddler, Sandy Saddler, and Archie Moore from the Foreman camp were sitting there, watching Angelo and I sweat to death fixing the ring, and not one of them even tried to help.

The fights wouldn't start until early in the morning so they would be sitting there tightened up and would stretch out more, which they did. The padding of course was like mush and certainly wouldn't translate to Ali being able to do too much dancing without his legs getting exhausted.

By the time we got to the Stadium, the fights were starting and they took up even more slack on the turnbuckles. By the time Ali and Foreman were ready to go in -- there wasn't much room at all left to tighten up on the turnbuckles, which they had been tightening during the prelims.

After a round or two, Angelo and the Ali corner were running around the corners trying to take up the slack on the ropes, and Ali was now saying to leave them alone. He realized the ring was too spongy, but the slack ropes, would let him lean back and have Foreman miss with his big swings, and expelling his energy.

It was uncanny how quickly Ali made the adjustment that conditions dictated. He was something very special. Special indeed. The many years I spent around him were precious.

WOW. Great Post.


I never knew Moore and Saddler watched Angelo try and tighten the ropes.


Frankenfrank, should read that post.

[BattlingNelson]

I am sorry that I haven't been on for a while as I am running to Tournament, with 300 boxers, and also running NJ Boxing Hall of Fame.

When I saw the name of Bobby Goodman, I wrote him to get his take on it. Here's what he wrote back.

Henry:

In Zaire -- I had to pick up all of the equipment, including the training equipment shipped in by plane from Everlast. We had the speed bag racks,
the heavy bag, a double-end bag and various other equipment. We had already fashioned a ring for the gym which they could work in. Don't forget we were there months before the fight to set up and Ali and Foreman were going to train down there for about a month. Everlast also shipped me a brand new ring with the "Ensaflor" padding, steps and new ropes, corner pads, etc. I had to go with a military crew and military truck to pick up the equipment directly from the plane on the tarmack.

I took all the equipment for the gym, which was being set up at N'sele (like a Camp David type set-up on the Zaire River (a.k.a. Congo). I took my time and with a local military crew, erected the gym from scratch. We sent the new 24' X 24' ring and all that equipment pertaining to the ring to the Stadium in Kinshasa (about 30 minutes away). We also left them instructions to keep the ring and equipment in an air conditioned storage area.

It was the day of the fight and Angelo and myself, as was our normal tradition, went over to inspect the ring. They had already put down the padding and put up the ropes, which I had previously asked them not to do, because in all that heat and humidity, the padding would get "spongy" and the new ropes, would stretch out (which they had). The turnbuckles didn't have any more slack to take up in the ropes, so we got a screwdriver and a couple of razor blades and some tape and went to work. We undid the connections on each new rope, taking up sufficient rope with each turnbuckle opened wide, leaving some room to stretch out more, reconnected the ends of the ropes with the clamps on all four ropes and cut off the excess by sawing them off with the razor blades. At this stage, we made sure all of the ropes were properly lined up and just barely hand-tightened the ropes with a little slack. We told the people at the Stadium to leave them like that until the start of the show, since we now had plenty of room to tighten as they stretched out. Of course, we're in Zaire and they hadn't listened and tightened the ropes up more. And by the way -- Dick Saddler, Sandy Saddler, and Archie Moore from the Foreman camp were sitting there, watching Angelo and I sweat to death fixing the ring, and not one of them even tried to help.

The fights wouldn't start until early in the morning so they would be sitting there tightened up and would stretch out more, which they did. The padding of course was like mush and certainly wouldn't translate to Ali being able to do too much dancing without his legs getting exhausted.

By the time we got to the Stadium, the fights were starting and they took up even more slack on the turnbuckles. By the time Ali and Foreman were ready to go in -- there wasn't much room at all left to tighten up on the turnbuckles, which they had been tightening during the prelims.

After a round or two, Angelo and the Ali corner were running around the corners trying to take up the slack on the ropes, and Ali was now saying to leave them alone. He realized the ring was too spongy, but the slack ropes, would let him lean back and have Foreman miss with his big swings, and expelling his energy.

It was uncanny how quickly Ali made the adjustment that conditions dictated. He was something very special. Special indeed. The many years I spent around him were precious.

Thanks for sharing.