Did Jack Sharkey take a dive against Primo?

[New England]

[QUOTE=Lucas Machine;13533203]

I am not intimidated by you in the least bit. If you want to have a go with me, expect something in return. That's the way it works. If you believe you can sling rubbish and walk away clean, you're dealing with the wrong person.

When it comes to Carnera, he was a lumbering fraud with little skills. The only thing he had was size. Most historians will side with me on that which means you will have to live with it.

you're dealing with a REAL DEAL alt, jab.

no baby nuts.

[Humean]

Either it was a dive or the greatest uppercut thrown in boxing history. Sharkey's entire body went up into the air and then fell to the canvas. I have to side with the former view because that is not what happens when you get hit with a monster uppercut. It snaps your head back rather than force your entire body up in the air in the way Sharkey went down. It was the equivalent of a dive in football/soccer, where players when tripped somehow get tripped up into the air before falling.

In recent years there as been online some ridiculous revisionism regarding Carnera, suggesting he didn't have fixed fights and that he was actually a good heavyweight. It is well attested to, about as well as can be possible barring a LaMotta style congressional testimony, that many of Carnera's European and early American fights were fixed. He certainly did improve as a fighter, quite frankly he could not get any worse but he never improved to the point where he could do the damage he is supposed to have inflicted upon Sharkey with that uppercut.

[Ray Corso]

.........nope no dive!! Just talked to him he said he got abit sleepy and just fell out for a while!!!! it happens!!! nice guy too!! Ray

[Greatest1942]

Now did JAB get banned ?

Anyways to claim that Carnera was a ba fighter because he was in fixed fghts early on is ridiculous. If one sees teh youtube video it looks like the head snapped back and Sharkey was hit.

The way Sharkey was throwing right hands at CArnera during the fight seemed to me pretty real.

Its weird people believe that Carnera was bad yet Vitali is great. Anyways have to ignore this...anyone should actually carefully watch the youtube video before arguing here.

[Humean]

Anyways to claim that Carnera was a ba fighter because he was in fixed fghts early on is ridiculous. .

You don't fix so many of a guys early fights unless he is pretty damn useless, so useless that despite his weight advantage he seemingly couldn't throw punches meaningfully to knock guys out. Even with great improvement his punching power was still only fairly average, which considering he was around 50-70 pounds heavier than his opponent on average suggests he had poor technique. Footage clearly backs that up. The jab was the only punch he really threw with any real degree of competence.

If one sees teh youtube video it looks like the head snapped back and Sharkey was hit

Watch it again, his body is thrown up with his head. What should happen is that the head alone snaps back and then the body collapses to canvas. What happened here is that his body moved up and back into the air along with his head. Look at Sharkey's right leg lift up. If you have any other footage of a similar example of a big uppercut producing that effect then i'd like to see it and be proved wrong about this.

The way Sharkey was throwing right hands at CArnera during the fight seemed to me pretty real.

I agree that that is evidence that it was not a fix. However it is worth bearing in mind that it is not especially easy to fix a fight without it looking fixed, especially fixing it by knockout. It is not necessarily inconsistent for the fighter 'in the tank' to actually be fighting legitimately for periods. Also fighting instinct is bound to creep in when being punched.

Its weird people believe that Carnera was bad yet Vitali is great. Anyways have to ignore this...anyone should actually carefully watch the youtube video before arguing here.

I think I have watched about as much Carnera footage that exists on the internet and it should be patently obvious to anyone who hasn't got some prejudice against Vitali Klitschko that Vitali is by quite a margin a superior fighter to Carnera. To think otherwise is utterly preposterous .

[Scott9945]

[QUOTE=Humean;13544789I think I have watched about as much Carnera footage that exists on the internet and it should be patently obvious to anyone who hasn't got some prejudice against Vitali Klitschko that Vitali is by quite a margin a superior fighter to Carnera. To think otherwise is utterly preposterous .[/QUOTE]

True. Vitali has dominated almost all his fights, taking control and dictating the pace. You can make a case for Carnera facing better opposition, but the idea of him being an equal talent seems ridiculous, all things being considered.

[Humean]

At least we agree on something Scott9945

[Scott9945]

At least we agree on something Scott9945

Well lets look at it this way, so far we have only disagreed on one topic.

[Greatest1942]

You don't fix so many of a guys early fights unless he is pretty damn useless, so useless that despite his weight advantage he seemingly couldn't throw punches meaningfully to knock guys out. Even with great improvement his punching power was still only fairly average, which considering he was around 50-70 pounds heavier than his opponent on average suggests he had poor technique. Footage clearly backs that up. The jab was the only punch he really threw with any real degree of competence.



Watch it again, his body is thrown up with his head. What should happen is that the head alone snaps back and then the body collapses to canvas. What happened here is that his body moved up and back into the air along with his head. Look at Sharkey's right leg lift up. If you have any other footage of a similar example of a big uppercut producing that effect then i'd like to see it and be proved wrong about this.



I agree that that is evidence that it was not a fix. However it is worth bearing in mind that it is not especially easy to fix a fight without it looking fixed, especially fixing it by knockout. It is not necessarily inconsistent for the fighter 'in the tank' to actually be fighting legitimately for periods. Also fighting instinct is bound to creep in when being punched.


I think I have watched about as much Carnera footage that exists on the internet and it should be patently obvious to anyone who hasn't got some prejudice against Vitali Klitschko that Vitali is by quite a margin a superior fighter to Carnera. To think otherwise is utterly preposterous .

I dont want to go onto a debate with you...two things

1) Watch Louis Galento...Galento is lifted up by an inch...there are other fights where this happen too.

2) Vitali being better, yea he is, much better not so. Carnera faced opponents who were better, and it is always difficult to knock out more experienced fighters.

And about him throwing only the jab with competence, might be , there are zillions of fighters who were soft punchers but came up with surprising knock outs when needed. Bottom line is Carnera landed the punch, Sharkeys head snapped back, Sharkey it appeared was hit by a followup, so I think there is more proof for the non fix than Fix.

Ali knocked out Bonavona with a punch, Frazier couldnt, infact it was probably the single greatest punch Ali landed, no one would have believed Ali could ko a guy Frazier couldnt ...hey it happened..doesnt mean it was fix,

[Humean]

I dont want to go onto a debate with you...two things

1) Watch Louis Galento...Galento is lifted up by an inch...there are other fights where this happen too.

I don't think this example is comparable. The Louis shot was more a balance shot, Galento was probably dazed from the shot(s) immediately prior to the left hook that dropped him in round 2 and was not in steady balance. Strong evidence of this is that Galento bounced straight back up. Sharkey lay motionless for a few seconds, suggesting he was actually out cold, or faking being out cold.

2) Vitali being better, yea he is, much better not so. Carnera faced opponents who were better, and it is always difficult to knock out more experienced fighters.

And about him throwing only the jab with competence, might be , there are zillions of fighters who were soft punchers but came up with surprising knock outs when needed. Bottom line is Carnera landed the punch, Sharkeys head snapped back, Sharkey it appeared was hit by a followup, so I think there is more proof for the non fix than Fix.

Ali knocked out Bonavona with a punch, Frazier couldnt, infact it was probably the single greatest punch Ali landed, no one would have believed Ali could ko a guy Frazier couldnt ...hey it happened..doesnt mean it was fix,

I'm sorry to be boring by reiterating this but Sharkey's head did not snap back, his head and upper body moved in unison. I'm not sure the following left actually landed, it is hard to tell from the video. The legitimacy of the careers of Ali and Carnera are a world apart, we knew/know Ali could punch hard, there is strong doubt that Carnera could. Moreover if this punch was legit then it is not only the greatest uppercut ever thrown but it would be a contender for the greatest knockout in boxing history. It does seem to stretch credibility that a man with such dubious abilities and power could have achieved this.