Comments Thread For: Roach: Pacquiao is Not The Same Guy Who Fought Hatton

[hectari]

Doesn't make him one dimensional but it does make him readable. He doesn't follow some of the most basic fundamentals of boxing defense and that's why he gets outboxed. The guy can't guard against the right hand (something I blame roach for, and his head movement is non-existed. If you can reach for him, you can hit him. This doesn't define all of his style, just some of the obvious one dimensional part.

non existent? he has a lot of head movement? He made Floyd miss a lot and in the first Bradley fight both guys were mixing it up and barely getting hit flush becuase of their movement and reflexes, Pac impressed me more than Floyd did, I was expecting Pac to get tore up Gatti style, because all the Floyd fans were saying easy work, Floyd will land so many shots, instead Floyd was struggling and fighting cautious and safe. If you dont think that is impressive I dont know man, also Pac for all these years of being offensive he only got knocked out cold and dropped by Marquez in the 4th fight, you know how hard it is to take that many offensive chances its more impressive than a defensive pot shotter, because throwing shots and leaving yourself open and not getting KO is very hard man.

Pac is not one dimensional at all, Juan Manuel Marquez is, he also doesn't block shots or tie up, he doesnt fight well on the front foot or pressure well at all, he is limited to backstepping matador style, when he was forced to chase Floyd he got picked apart that is because he is one dimensional and everytime JMM got dropped its when he went forward on someone, shows he is not good being a front forward fighter.

[Sledgeweather17]

Manny couldn't stop Chris Algieri, couldn't knock down Brandon Rios. To me, that's not looking good when it's Manny we're talking about here - the guy that made Margacheato's face look like ground beef and stopped Cotto in the 12th.

It definitely doesn't look good when pillow-fisted Bradley can drop Rios with a body shot yet Manny can't.



Went the distance with Brandon Rios.
Went the distance with Chris Algieri.
Lost to Timothy Bradley. ("No matter how...you...cut it, slice it or dice it.")
Got one-punch knocked out by Marquez.

And no, I don't agree he's the best welter in the world. How can you be when there are 6 - possibly 8 - ways to beat you?

Top 10? Absolutely.

Past his prime? Considering how Floyd domesticated him which simply should not have happened, I would argue he's pretty close. Manny didn't show up and we don't know why beyond the excuses. Old day Manny wouldn't make up excuses for getting schooled - because he wouldn't have gotten schooled in the first place.

I'm a Floyd fan but let's be realistic. The Manny that showed up against Mosley would have beaten Floyd via SD.

You do realise that Floyd would have been three years younger if he fought the Manny that beat Mosley right?

[SUBZER0ED]

Correction: besides a few harsh punches from JMM that shocked and almost knocked him down, the knock down AND the brutal KO that put him to sleep for a few minutes. Strangely, in the 4th fight Manny was the one connecting A LOT but the weaker, faster punches, whereas Marquez connected very little, but every single 100% clean punch of his stunned Manny. It smelled like KO from either side (accumulation of punches vs. raw power and accuracy). Definitely, it was Marquez the one who finished him off career-wise, nobody else. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bradley defeats him convincingly this time, even probably knocking him down.

I don't care what anybody says; Marquez was bigger & stronger than I've ever seen him & covered in acne for that fight. He was definitely juicing.

[screwhead1]

Floyd easily beat pacquaio. Because he did it in a way you didn't like, doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are people in here who legitimately don't want to count the fight because it didn't go the way they wanted. I see the trend because pacquaio feels the same. Wish we could say that for his trainer and the millions of media outlets that stated that pac was **** in that fight. The least amount of punches in any of his fights period and you think he wasn't outpointed?

[Combat Talk Radio]

You do realise that Floyd would have been three years younger if he fought the Manny that beat Mosley right?

What's your point?

A more aggressive, constantly busy, constantly throwing Manny Pacquiao beats Floyd Mayweather. Again, I'm a Floyd fan, but we've seen the pattern. In the first Maidana fight Chino almost never let up - the result? A split decision victory for Floyd. Barely won the fight.

Chino's nowhere near as accurate as Manny is/was.

It's not just about pressure, it's about 100% risk taking against Floyd. You notice Chino is really the only fighter to really do that well. As a result he was the closest to beating him in the past decade.

[Spiegelo]

Doesn't make him one dimensional but it does make him readable. He doesn't follow some of the most basic fundamentals of boxing defense and that's why he gets outboxed.

Who are these people outboxing Pacquiao? If getting outboxed by Floyd Mayweather makes you readable and limited, then what would that say about Floyd? I think we can forgive Pac for getting outboxed by probably the best boxer of this generation, especially being that it was at the very end of a long and brutal career.

The guy can't guard against the right hand (something I blame roach for, and his head movement is non-existed. If you can reach for him, you can hit him. This doesn't define all of his style, just some of the obvious one dimensional part.

Are we talking about the same Manny Pacquiao? I think you need to rewatch some of his fights. He mostly uses his footwork, but he has plenty head movement as well, which he uses to set up his offense and defense. Not sure where you're getting this idea of "non-existed" head movement, but again, once you attach these bull**** labels to a fighter like "brawler" or "one-dimensional", you stop using your eyes and start relying on these stock, cliche, preconceived notions.

If anything, his defensive limitations come mostly from keeping the other hand down by his waist while firing combinations, which I'd say is done intentionally. Like many offensive fighters, he prefers counter punching, so like GGG, Darchinyan, Prince Naz, etc., he'll keep his hands low to invite an attack and create opportunities to land cleaner, harder punches. When you have footwork, head movement, timing, and handspeed like Pacquiao, you can get away with this approach.

[aboutfkntime]

I'm sick of this "puncher or boxer" idea, where you can only be on one side of the spectrum. You really oversimplify all the levels of boxing when you say this. Yes, Manny is an offensive fighter, but that doesn't make him a one dimensional brawler. If you look at the last Marquez fight, you'll see brilliant boxing on display. He feints, then uses lateral movement to put him in perfect punching position. He's always balanced to attack, even while moving. It's the same way boxers like Bernard Hopkins set up their attack. Despite getting ktfo, he nearly doubled the accuracy and punches landed on one of the most accurate counter punches in the sport. He also hasn't looked anything like that ever since. And the notion that he is flat footed is ridiculous. Everyone keeps saying look at the Margarito fight. He doesn't stop moving throughout the entire fight. Then look at his last 4 fights, and tell me if you see the same nonstop, lateral movement.

Pac's clearly been on the decline since Margs, and ever since he got ktfo, he doesn't seem to enjoy getting hit as much, nor does he fly in for the kill. Hope that helps you see what everyone else is talking about.

STOP !!

I said this..... Manny "has always been..... more puncher than boxer".

I did not say, all that stuff you said.

I don't think he's one-dimensional.

And I did not say he was flat-footed either, I said his opponents were.

And, did you really say this..... "Pac..... doesn't seem to enjoy getting hit as much"?

[aboutfkntime]

I totally disagree.

If the fight had happened 6 years ago, simply because Manny wasn't nearly as defensively proficient, by his trainer's own admission, there would have been no UD victory for either.

However, Manny was, as has been noted, way more offensively proficient. He would punch and pivot, he would feint and throw, and he would connect shots I didn't even think he'd land. That Manny would have been able to use offense in a way Floyd had never seen before, and I firmly believe would have taken later rounds to a SD victory.

The only reason the judges in MayPac didn't give it to Manny is because he didn't show up. He was inactive. His punch output was a joke except rounds 4 and 6. Blame Ariza if you must, but this fact cannot be understated.

Even if Manny had thrown 1,000 punches and missed the same percentage, I still believe they'd have given him the SD simply because of activity and aggression.





I just don't think current Floyd was a bad matchup. 135-140 Floyd? Absolutely.

To me MayPac was a mirror image of Pacquiao/Clottey in terms of what "The other fighter" was doing. Pacquiao took a UD in that fight despite hardly hurting Clottey and despite Clottey causing facial damage on Pacquiao. Why? Pacquiao almost never stopped throwing punches. He tried. He showed up.



Disagree.

Pacquiao/Marquez 3, Pacquiao/Barrera, Pacquiao/Morales 2 or 3, Pacquiao/Rios, Pacquiao/De La Hoya, Pacquiao/Margarito. Pacquiao USED to punch on the move all the time.

That is a ridiculous excuse really.

Pac did not " show up " because his punch output plummeted..... and his punch output plummeted for the exact same reason why every other Mayweather opponent suffered a massive drop in punch output.

Because of Mayweather's boxing IQ/accuracy/and timing.

Most insiders picked Mayweather even back in 09', because of his technical accuracy and length advantage.

That fight was always going to be a boxing match, no matter what version of Pacquiao showed up..... and Pacquiao will not outbox Mayweather.

Manny had to turn that boxing match into a fight, and nobody ever managed to explain to me how his 5'6" ass was going to close the distance on Floyd, even back then.

Also, there could be a reason why Pac was able to throw 1200 punches vs Clottey, but is now back in the usual 600-700 range..... and we found out back in 09' that anyone who fights Mayweather will have to take random blood tests.

Not saying that Pac was juicing, just that nobody was ever going to have an unfair advantage over Mayweather in that area, so whoever can make Mayweather fight will need to do it the old fashioned way.

[aboutfkntime]

What's your point?

A more aggressive, constantly busy, constantly throwing Manny Pacquiao beats Floyd Mayweather. Again, I'm a Floyd fan, but we've seen the pattern. In the first Maidana fight Chino almost never let up - the result? A split decision victory for Floyd. Barely won the fight.

Chino's nowhere near as accurate as Manny is/was.

It's not just about pressure, it's about 100% risk taking against Floyd. You notice Chino is really the only fighter to really do that well. As a result he was the closest to beating him in the past decade.

Rubbish.

In the first chino fight, Mayweather selected him because he thought chino was a flat-footed punching bag..... Floyd saw chino as a over-rated "look-good" opponent..... that is why Mayweather fought him flat-footed.

Chino put on a great performance and really took it to Mayweather.

In the rematch, Mayweather boxed him, and we all saw what happened.

And he fought Cotto a similar way for a large part of their fight.

Go re-watch, and check out Mayweather's feet.

[Spiegelo]

STOP !!

I said this..... Manny "has always been..... more puncher than boxer".

I did not say, all that stuff you said.

I don't think he's one-dimensional.

And I did not say he was flat-footed either, I said his opponents were.

And, did you really say this..... "Pac..... doesn't seem to enjoy getting hit as much"?

True, you did say more puncher than boxer, but you also said "He has always been predominantly flat-footed."

And yes, he clearly doesn't enjoy getting hit as much. As stupid as it sounds, he used to smile and welcome the exchanges. He no longer responds the same. Even against Rios, who he danced circles around and beat the hell out of for all 12 rds, on the 2 occasions where Rios landed, Pac completely changed his demeanor and would go on the defensive for a short while. Same when fighting Bradley, he was very cautious of those right hands. It's not like when Barrera or BHop completely changed their aggressive styles to better suit their age/physicality. Instead, this looks more like hesitation and at times, fear of getting hit.