Hip Hop is a low artform, and I'm being generous here

[THe TRiNiTY]

1. Did Godzhand post some grungy rock videos or something? I don't listen to that **** either.

2. C-Drone made a few nice points, but got too emotional. I'll address a few of them:

a. I never said poets weren't artists. But hip hop "artists" typically work altogether without observance of implicit laws of sense and logic; also, their vocabulary is both narrow and vague. I have yet to find a very good poet among hip hop lyricists, and I have looked. Post some lyrics you think are good, and I'll explain why they aren't.

b. You keep saying "don't be close-minded." My points were the result of many years of careful study of pop culture. I explained them without hyperbole, emotional content, or disrespect.

c. Regarding breakdancing, it was a nice fashion. I'm old enough for it, and to this day I can still breakdance. Reread the point in my initial post, however, and you'll see this was irrelevant. I claimed hip hop contributed nothing of any note from a musical-theoretical standpoint. I did not discuss popular dance.

And you claim NO close-mindedness? Be real. I'm not emotional about anything. I'm just realistic. You said rhythm. If you are talking about music, name the other style of music you could realistically breakdance to. All I asked.

Simple enough, you can believe what you'd like, but the fact remains that you simply don't like the music. It's kind of sad that people have to HATE what they don't like. As apposed to just NOT liking it and moving along.

[The Critic]

And you claim NO close-mindedness? Be real. I'm not emotional about anything. I'm just realistic. You said rhythm. If you are talking about music, name the other style of music you could realistically breakdance to. All I asked.

Simple enough, you can believe what you'd like, but the fact remains that you simply don't like the music. It's kind of sad that people have to HATE what they don't like. As apposed to just NOT liking it and moving along.

As you might say, "chill homie." If you found good lyrics I would admit it.

[THe TRiNiTY]

As you might say, "chill homie." If you found good lyrics I would admit it.

Who's upset? And why MIGHT I say "chill homie?"

[Killa Cam]

(A!) Alert, assassins at large allegedly
Automatic artillery, angrily aimed and aggressively
Accurate AK's angled all ways
Adversary afraid as active ammunition abrase
Accumulated an alias after arrested
Accompanied armed accessory, as an adolescent
(B!) Bridge Benz brolic burner bringing brothers
Betrayer's bodies briefly be body banged bleeding brothers
Blades blasting brave bashing Brooklyn bullet busters
Big biscuits barrels blazing be hating ***** boasts and bluffers
Borough barricaders beat bringers brutally blast
Bringin blood baths (C!) cover cowards corners collecting cash
Confirmed convicts committing crimes clapping cats
Creeping cashiers causing characters comas, capping crabs
Chaos causing, clearly commanding Cee-Lo
Cocaine capsule caps colored, capturing customer's C-Notes
Confiscating combination, counting cream capulating
Cocking calibur chromes creating casualties compensating
(D!) Domination devoted dealer devastating
Determination demonstrating, devine dedication
Debating drug deals, demanding dough distributed
Definitely dividing double-digit dollar dividends
Drama declaring demolishing domain dozer
Directing dumb-dumbs doing dummies dirty disarming Dojos
(E!) Estimating earnings enlarged and economically
Equally educating each exercising equality
Eliminating, expiring enemies eradicating
Erasing evidence every element evacuating
(F!) Fake fraud ******s fronting for fame fleeing from flames
Firing full-fledged four-fours forcing flesh from frames
Fortune fanatic, follow formats for funds faithfully
**** five felonies, furiously fighting for freedom fatally
Frigidy, frantic fighting FEDS feeling fearful
Finacially fortunate, flipping figures from fifty-fifty
(G!) Gambles gathering grants, grabbing gauges, gangsta ganks geeks
Getting green, Guess garments gleaming, greatly gaining G's
Ghetto genius, genuine gestures gracefully guide
Government generals gradually generating genocide
(H!) Head hoodlum, hitting heads heavenly, hypnotizing
Hire hitmen harnessly, holding heaters, hospitalizing
High holding hammers hectically hitting herbs, homiciding
Helicopter hijacking holding hostages, horrifying
(I!) Intellectually infinite imperial idol infamous
Inhale the Izm, injecting intelligence in ignorance
(J!) Jungle jump juggler, jaw-jabbing jeopardizer
Jacking jewelry jingles, jackknife jigging jittery jivers
(K!) Konnivers, knowledge key, keep a king, keep a kingdom
KKK killing, keenly keeping kosher
(L!) Living legitimate, legal license, Lex' lasting longevity
Luxury life, language lacing lyrical legacy
Lighting L's, loudly lounging living large like Luther
Loading long Lugers lethally lullabying losers
(M!) Maneuvers, made miraculously, microphone majesty
Music messiah mastered money making mathematically
(N!) Naturally negative, Notorious, Naughty Nature
Nasty New York ***** narcotic negotiator
(O!) Observator, oppression obstructing originator
Organized official officer oxen operator
(P!) Plot participator, plan powder pushing premeditated
Po-Po partners patrolin preventing payment
Prosecuting penny pinchers, prison penalty permanent placement
Packing powerful pistols punk plea and player's playing pavement
(Q!) Quote – "Queen's qualifyed quantity quality"
(R!) Rulers rule righteously rightfully royal rapology
Real revolutionaries rather regulate rivalry
Rampantly raising raiders rampagin relentless rivalry
(S!) Semi-sub, snub slugs sniping sharp shooter
Smacking soldiers silly severely shanking stupid (T!) troopers
Terrorizing, terrible thorough thug terrifying
Toting two tecs, taking territories thoroughly thriving
(U!) Unifying ultimately uplifting uncivilized
Unique understanding universally utilized
(V!) Visualize vocab victoriously vocalized
Versatile vice-versa verbals viciously victimize
(W!) Wise willy witty wisdom waging wars wisely
(X!) X-Con (Y!) yapping y'all yearningly (Z!) zig-zag Z!

[DJ KaySlay]
Hold on hold on
My ***** Papoose just took y'all, through the whole alphabet
A to Z, now we bout to flip it backwards, Z to A
Yo Papoose, get at these *****z man, let's go!

[Papoose]
(Z!) Zig-zag zigs involved weighing Zambian Zaires
Zodiac zone and Zulu's, Zion's zap a zillion zillionaires
(Y!) Yo you yeah, yesterday's youth yearning your yen
You yellow-bellied Yankee ying-yang yelling "yes"-men ([DJ KaySlay]
Hold up hold up, yo I'm just playing)
(X!) X-rated, ex-African, X-Man
Ex-leaders, ex-Clarence, X-Malcolm, X-Clan ([DJ KaySlay] Yo chill, yo chill chill chill man, chill man)
(W!) We want war, World War, world-wide warning
Walking with weapons we wacking walkie-talkie wearing wardens
We with whatever, want what whyling wherever war went
Warlock, warpath, warfare, warriors and Warren's – wait, what, why?

[res]

It's an unfortunate cultural phenomenon, especially when you consider it arose primarily in the same country and among the same race that invented and developed jazz. Even more unfortunate is that kids worldwide have wasted their time listening to this.

Here are some of the problems I see with this music:

1. It demands too little of its participants. Jazz musicians may have rejected various techniques and forms, but they never exempted themselves from learning to master instruments and musical form. Now any kid with some equipment can call himself an "artist."

2. In terms of traditional musical elements (rhythm, harmony, melody) hip hop has contributed nothing, and even the reputed "underground" music is altogether lacking.

3. For the past two decades it has lacked thoughtful content. When was the last time a hip hop song was about something?

4. Lyrically, there has never been a competent artist who also pursued hip hop. I have checked far and wide, and I can't even find a third-rate poet who composed hip hop lyrics. And don't talk to me about "Tupac." He was better than average, but far from being a good writer.

5. Finally, and most importantly, the "culture" surrounding hip hop consists in nothing but ridiculous gestures, false pretense, and general slackness of character, posture, and attitude.

Well If you are comparing hip Hop to "High Art" I would absolutely agree with you (I am a huge Bach and Albinoni fan) however if you are comparing it to other genres of popular music i would strongly disagree with you. In my opinion, at it's best, it is the most compelling form of popular music besides Blues. It is so unlike other genres of music though that it can be hard to convey it's aesthetic and appeal precisely. Besides that, there is so much bad that has been done to it's name, and so much garbage out there that is labeled "Hip Hop" that the perception of it suffers greatly. This includes the perception of it's merits. For example the rapper Rakim over 20 years ago modeled a kind of cocky/cool aesthetic feel to this music that was it's own version of "the cool" within the Jazz music aesthetic. In the modern day however the commercially profitable "gangsta" cliche has distorted and practically destroyed this aesthetic. Rakim would talk about his music and his skill, which he actually represented as deriving from a higher source, while advising kids to avoid violence and foolishly haughty behavior. The modern context twists this aesthetic untill it is unrecognizable and unappreciable. So there is first the issue of Hip Hop's fundamental character as a genre of music being difficult to convey for those that do not catch it instinctually (and those would include many of the millions that buy the records), and there is the issue of the fact that this form has been distorted for many years. Remember that hip Hop began as the artistic expression of a single closed community and has since become something very different. It is now an international commodity with very little interest in artistic expression.

As an illustration of the difference in general, I grew up in an era where the majority of rappers only ever talked about violence to condemn it.

Now let me address your points.

Demands little of it's participants? Well we probably have diferent defintions of "demanding alot". To me it is how innovative the end result is that determines talent in poular music. I am talking about someone that at the end of the day can yeild the most creative product regardless of whether or not they are using a guitar or some other "tool". Can anyone call themselves an artist? Well I don't think that a person that can just play a guitar is an "artist", art is defined by creativity. Anyone can be taught to play a guitar or piano but it does not follow that they are particularly creative and are therefore artists. Are we alarmed about the prospect of these people wrongfully calling themselves artists? Anyone can call themselves an artist but in the final analysis it is creative talent that will define the artist.

Contributing to music in the formal sense? Well in it's form it is a radically differnt genre of music, it is not going to contribute to melodically based music when it is not a strictly melodically based genre. Hip Hop itself is a formal innovation. For example, it turns music inside out and allows beats to wear melodies instead of having melodies strucured by beats. It ofcourse builds on this form , but because is a disctinct form it wouldn't be altering the form of melodically based music.

Hip Hop displayed on MTV and on the radio for the last 13 or so years lacks substance but this is not the same thing as saying that "Hip Hop lacks thoughful content" . I am not even talking about underground artists, I am talking about mainstream artists that are just a little more difficult to find than turning on MTV.

As for lyricism, there are plenty of good lyrics by the standard of not only popular music in general, but in my opinion some of the stuff that gets passed off in the modern day as poetry lol .


As for the culture, well that is clearly one person's interpretation. Remember that when you speak of "Hip Hop" you are not just talking about those aspects of hip Hop that you happen to be thinking about when you make the statement, but the entire genre.

[The Critic]

Excellent post, res.

Edit: of course most of my criticisms apply to most genres of popular music.

[-Antonio-]

You make some very valid points there Critic, most of all being the lack of "talent" for want of a better word. Sure, it may be very difficult to speak into a microphone in time to music, but what about people who play guitar at the same time? ****, Phil Collins used to play drums and sing at the same time, two completely different rhythms, that's talent if you ask me. Not slating Hip Hop in any way, I quite like some of it myself, but the ammount of talent needed is nothing in comparison to other forms of music.

You used one of the best artists ever as a comparison. Not many musical artists period compare to the talent of Phil Collins.

"..nothing in comparison" I disagree with. I absolutely think Hip Hop has artists on the same level as other genre's artists.

[Smokin']

Hip hop has plenty of good writers. 2pac wasn't a greater from a classic sense, but damn he could write some songs.

[-Antonio-]

It's an unfortunate cultural phenomenon, especially when you consider it arose primarily in the same country and among the same race that invented and developed jazz. Even more unfortunate is that kids worldwide have wasted their time listening to this.

Here are some of the problems I see with this music:

1. It demands too little of its participants. Jazz musicians may have rejected various techniques and forms, but they never exempted themselves from learning to master instruments and musical form. Now any kid with some equipment can call himself an "artist."

2. In terms of traditional musical elements (rhythm, harmony, melody) hip hop has contributed nothing, and even the reputed "underground" music is altogether lacking.

3. For the past two decades it has lacked thoughtful content. When was the last time a hip hop song was about something?

4. Lyrically, there has never been a competent artist who also pursued hip hop. I have checked far and wide, and I can't even find a third-rate poet who composed hip hop lyrics. And don't talk to me about "Tupac." He was better than average, but far from being a good writer.

5. Finally, and most importantly, the "culture" surrounding hip hop consists in nothing but ridiculous gestures, false pretense, and general slackness of character, posture, and attitude.

What about play on words, delivery, or flow? You don't feel Hip Hop has contributed in that way at all, kayjay?

Were people doing this before the 90's?

[Smokin']

To be fair, the critic is right.

The majority of hip hop is low artform like he says.

They have no great innovators. Like Pink Floyd to rock music. Jimi to blues. James to Soul. D'Angelo to neo-soul. Sabbath to metal. etc. etc.

Oh, and alot of the crap 'underground'...is......yeah you guessed it...crap.

Just a bunch of englishy nerds trying to rap.

2pac may not have the lyrics of a meth or monche, but dude can straight up spit and make some nice songs. Touching songs. Keep Ya Head up or Dear Mama isn't genius from a poet level...but in terms of affecting the masses...yeah those are ****ing bangers.

In summary, artists like 2pac> Wutank, Monch, Rakim etc.