Is Luis Ortiz Overrated Poll?!?!?!?

[Fury4daWIN]

If he's clean now, then he's not cheating is he? He's currently no more guilty than Mayweather who refused release his past drug testing results to Pacquiao and as result settled out of court. He's no more guilty than Mayweather's fighters: Badu Jack, Mickey Bey, and J'Leon Love who all failed drug tests in the past.

If Ortiz trained with Memo Herredia, then he wouldn't have gotten caught and you wouldn't have to feel bad about him.

I don't have the energy to condemn fighters who piss dirty anymore. Whatever I might think of the situation (and I don't agree with it in any way) if everyone is doing it then the only clean fighters become those smart enough or well connected enough to bypass the testing procedures. What does the term even mean in that case? The whole thing becomes a mockery.

For instance you have fans (understandably) condemning Povetkin and Fury for PED use yet still backing Joshua and Wilder, two men who are obviously chemically enhanced but are 'clean' only in the sense that they've never failed a test. That's fair enough from a sporting rules POV. But it also supposes you consider the drug testing orgs to be infallible and/or uncorruptible, which of course they aren't.

Ultimately, of course, the only way to truly control the situation is to ensure the very strictest quality control measures and punish those who fail tests with lengthy bans and fines in the hope that their situation deters others (which it likely won't). In that respect moral outrage still has a place, in ensuring that cheaters face real lasting repercussions both socially and monetarily. But if history has shown anything it's that athletes would rather take the risk and deal with the consequences later than think twice now and compromise their chances at fame, money and glory.

[BlackRevolver]

And you're statement tells me everything about you. Drug testing today is weak. If the fighters were doing 24/7 year round testing for all substances then I would have more agreement with you about the punishment. Right now, the majority of PED use is occurring outside of the testing periods, guys are making their gains and cycling off then testing clean.

As for people who get caught under the current system, whether they intentionally took something or accidentally (many current legal products are loaded with illegal ingredients so that the consumer sees a benefit and keeps buying it), those who get caught need to pay a price. Suspension, fines, loss ranking, ect. But they deserve a chance to come back clean & legit after they pay those prices. Repeat offenders like Tarver should be banned for life and be subject to criminal charges. But you're suggesting once somebody commits a crime they should be locked up for life? I'll disagree, they should have a chance to come back clean and live under tighter scrutiny.

Depends on the crime, as I'm happy for a man caught stealing a happy meal from Macdonalds to have a second chance, but if a man rapes a woman in Macdonalds then no second chance.

My issue with drug cheats (in sport) is the damage it does to the reputation, the message we send out to young sportsmen that its ok to cheat once, if you get caught you can comeback, but if you manage to avoid being caught then you're on the verge of greatness.

I'm not being naive regarding drug use in sport, I know what's going on and I know there will be individuals out there that have developed a system that means they avoid detection.

However as soon as any fighter, any athlete is talented, has big pecs, or hits harder then the rest, fans say "he must be dirty". If we allow dirty fighters to remain in the sport, it means we're happy for drug cheats to be here, which sends out the wrong message.

[sugar ray lenrd]

Ortiz's dominate stoppage over Jennings is better than anything Johsua has done and as good as Wilder's win over Stieverne. If he's such hype, Wilder could've chose to fight Ortiz instead of Arreola, same with Joshua choosing to fight Breazele. They both could've taken a fight with Ortiz.

Amen brother, good Post! Nuff said...

[Fury4daWIN]

innocent till proven guilty

You're free to take that tack, but if I were you I'd feel pretty stupid backing a guy like Joshua simply because he hasn't failed a test yet.

[Fury4daWIN]

According to a poster called WTF huck on a boxing forum? OK.

From my experience of working in sport, any individual that is (clean) but is better/stronger/faster then the rest, will have to deal with rumours, being labelled dirty or "he must be on something".

That just says more about the people spreading the rumours, as while there will of course be cheats out there (that haven't been caught) there are talented individuals who don't have to cheat.

You're naïve if you think anyone in the top ten is clean.

[Eastcoast]

Depends on the crime, as I'm happy for a man caught stealing a happy meal from Macdonalds to have a second chance, but if a man rapes a woman in Macdonalds then no second chance.

My issue with drug cheats (in sport) is the damage it does to the reputation, the message we send out to young sportsmen that its ok to cheat once, if you get caught you can comeback, but if you manage to evade being caught then you're on the verge of greatness.

I'm not being naive regarding drug use in sport, I know what's going on and I know there will be individuals out there that have developed a system that means they avoid detection.

However as soon as any fighter, any athlete is talented, has big pecs, or hits harder then the rest, fans say "he must be dirty". If we allow dirty fighters to remain in the sport, it means we're happy for drug cheats to be here, which sends out the wrong message.

I can agree with most of that. Seeing professional athletes get busted for PEDs is bad enough, but then to realize it's happening all the way down to the grade school level where no testing exists at all is depressing and frustrating. I agree we need serious punishments to stop this, but life-time bans on 1st time offenders doesn't seem right. The fighter needs to have serious financial penalties based on the circumstances, but also the people around them need to share the blame. Trainers, S&C coaches, promoters, and managers should all take a hit so that they have an incentive to keep their guys clean moving forward.

I just can't agree with the instant removal of guys who are currently getting busted for the first time. We need to first address the problem with current testing standards, then need to address the problem with current system of punishment for getting caught. Some guys get caught and still are allowed to fight. That happened with both Tarver and Ferando Vargas. In Vargas' case, there's an argument that it was circumstantial based on that drugs prevalence in the cattle. Whether that's true or a convenient alibi we'll never know. But I couldn't ban him for life over it. Lamont Peterson got caught seriously jacking up his T-level, but he's come back a clean fighter for which I'm grateful.

[juandabomb]

no he definitely would ko wilder

[BlackRevolver]

I can agree with most of that. Seeing professional athletes get busted for PEDs is bad enough, but then to realize it's happening all the way down to the grade school level where no testing exists at all is depressing and frustrating. I agree we need serious punishments to stop this, but life-time bans on 1st time offenders doesn't seem right. The fighter needs to have serious financial penalties based on the circumstances, but also the people around them need to share the blame. Trainers, S&C coaches, promoters, and managers should all take a hit so that they have an incentive to keep their guys clean moving forward.

I just can't agree with the instant removal of guys who are currently getting busted for the first time. We need to first address the problem with current testing standards, then need to address the problem with current system of punishment for getting caught. Some guys get caught and still are allowed to fight. That happened with both Tarver and Ferando Vargas. In Vargas' case, there's an argument that it was circumstantial based on that drugs prevalence in the cattle. Whether that's true or a convenient alibi we'll never know. But I couldn't ban him for life over it. Lamont Peterson got caught seriously jacking up his T-level, but he's come back a clean fighter for which I'm grateful.

Eastcoast, You make some fair points. However I'm not convinced by athletes using certain excuses, as surely drug testing has been designed to catch someone who is a cheat and the levels in your body can't reach a certain point unless you have intentionally put illegal drugs in your system?

I take a cynical approach on this, as everyone has an excuse when they are caught and depending on how good you are at lying, you can make it seem like you're the victim.

The poster above has suggested Ortiz was caught twice? if true then I can't see how anyone can defend him.

He may have talent, natural talent, a skillful boxer, so you could argue he has wasted that talent if we're only hearing about him at an age when most boxers are considering retirement.

[Eastcoast]

Eastcoast, You make some fair points. However I'm not convinced by athletes using certain excuses, as surely drug testing has been designed to catch someone who is a cheat and the levels in your body can't reach a certain point unless you have intentionally put illegal drugs in your system?

I take a cynical approach on this, as everyone has an excuse when they are caught and depending on how good you are at lying, you can make it seem like you're the victim.

The poster above has suggested Ortiz was caught twice? if true then I can't see how anyone can defend him.

He may have talent, natural talent, a skillful boxer, so you could argue he has wasted that talent if we're only hearing about him at an age when most boxers are considering retirement.

No Ortiz tested positive just the one time for Nandrolone after he KO'd Lateef Kayode in '14. He got fined 10% of his purse, suspended 8 months, and stripped of his WBA title. But he was also subjected to random testing for the next year. Part of his plea deal was that he was a first time offender.

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id...ht-belt-ko-win

[BoxingFan85]

Yeah he was caught twice

Once bitten, twice shy.. Twice guilty still not banned, why!!?