Frazier beats everybody Marciano beat ...

[Humean]

Some here really need to get off the "size & weight" thing! It just gets ridiculous every other day here! This is another misconception from the Klitz Bros era that size is the first determining issue for a heavyweight!
There is NO weight class for a professional Heavyweight!!! A heavyweight could weigh 171lbs, get over the "big is better" BS!!!

Some of the greatest Heavyweight Fighters and Champions were under 205lbs!

The bigger guys like Ali down to Tyson were actually at their best at lighter weights!! Ali weighed 225 to 230 but his best was at 210-215, Tyson at 225 was nothing like Tyson at 210 to 215, Prime usually is consistant with age and weight and all the great fighters other than Big George were better lighter!

Anyone can fight at heavyweight weighing whatever they want to!!!! Ray.

Weight is vitally important, if it wasn't there would be no weight classes. Marciano's highest weight was I believe 189 pounds and the majority of fighters he beat were under 200 pounds, todays Cruiserweights. If Marciano fought one of the Klitschko's he'd be facing a man weighing 240-250 pounds,. That means he'd be facing a man that was at least about 27% of his own body weight heavier than him. You don't think that is relevant? That is what is so relevant about the size and weight of heavyweights of today, heavyweights have simply got heavier as time has worn on. Therefore the comparisons throuh history are harder to make and probably suggest that because of the weight that newer heavyweights could probably beat older ones even if their skill level is lower.

[StarshipTrooper]

Some here really need to get off the "size & weight" thing! It just gets ridiculous every other day here! This is another misconception from the Klitz Bros era that size is the first determining issue for a heavyweight!
There is NO weight class for a professional Heavyweight!!! A heavyweight could weigh 171lbs, get over the "big is better" BS!!!

Some of the greatest Heavyweight Fighters and Champions were under 205lbs!

The bigger guys like Ali down to Tyson were actually at their best at lighter weights!! Ali weighed 225 to 230 but his best was at 210-215, Tyson at 225 was nothing like Tyson at 210 to 215, Prime usually is consistant with age and weight and all the great fighters other than Big George were better lighter!

Anyone can fight at heavyweight weighing whatever they want to!!!! Ray.

Unfortunately Ray there's a TON of poster around here for whom weight is the be-all and end-all. I usually refer to them as "****ing ******s" or "size whores" for short. They're clueless and completely impervious to any rational explanations on the subject.

Poet

[rightsideup]

Rocky may not have defended against large me but he fought the best contender's of his time. He may have fought larger men on his way up. Joe Louis came in not more than 205 in his prime and defeated primo , Abe Simon plus Buddy Baer and these fellows were in the 250 range.

[Anthony342]

I always believed skill level was important along with weight, not just weight. If technique and ability are equal, then you go with the bigger fighter, which is why there are weight classes, as ability among the very best is usually pretty close. A 250 guy would have a shot at a smaller guy but if he doesn't have the technique has a puncher's chance at best. Royce Gracie beat all those bigger guys in the UFC's early days because his skill was light years ahead of most of his opponents, even though he was smaller than most of them. Once everyone else caught up to that, they started using weight classes.

[Capaedia]

Main difference between these two guys is that they peaked at different times in their careers. Frazier rose quickly, Marciano late. l

Marcianos career lasted 7 years.

Fraziers undefeated streak also lasted 7 years.

The difference is padding. Frazier stepped up in competition drastically in his 14th fight against Bonavena.

Marciano had a few more fights before stepping up.

Frazier was the heralded Olympic gold medalist, so its fair enough really.


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[Daddy T]

Weight is vitally important, if it wasn't there would be no weight classes. Marciano's highest weight was I believe 189 pounds and the majority of fighters he beat were under 200 pounds, todays Cruiserweights. If Marciano fought one of the Klitschko's he'd be facing a man weighing 240-250 pounds,. That means he'd be facing a man that was at least about 27% of his own body weight heavier than him. You don't think that is relevant? That is what is so relevant about the size and weight of heavyweights of today, heavyweights have simply got heavier as time has worn on. Therefore the comparisons throuh history are harder to make and probably suggest that because of the weight that newer heavyweights could probably beat older ones even if their skill level is lower.

Of course it is relevant but it's not the be all and end all. kids who have just come into the sport in the last few years see the kilts and think they win just becasue they are big or whatever and that a smaller guy couldn't beat them but it ain't the case. Even haye (who is no louis/ali/tyson etc) at what 210 or something? pushed wlad pretty close each round, wlad edging the rounds but not dominating them (despite what the klit lickers say) and not able or willing to engage. If there was a properly great 'little man' around today ... an ali, a tyson, a louis, a holyfield. He'd beat the snot out of your Fury's, price's Vitali's and co. It is only in recent years with the dramatic decline in skill in the heavyweight division that weight has become more of a determining factor. If you have too relatively unskilled guys going at it one at 210 and the other at 250 than the bigger guy is likely going to win. But once you reach heavyweight where everybody has that certain mass where anybody can knock out anybody else if you have one small guy with the speed and skills he can overcome big weight differentials. Just look at how holyfield or even haye outboxed the giant valuev. If weight was everything as you claim valuev would have demolished them.

[Humean]

Of course it is relevant but it's not the be all and end all. kids who have just come into the sport in the last few years see the kilts and think they win just becasue they are big or whatever and that a smaller guy couldn't beat them but it ain't the case. Even haye (who is no louis/ali/tyson etc) at what 210 or something? pushed wlad pretty close each round, wlad edging the rounds but not dominating them (despite what the klit lickers say) and not able or willing to engage. If there was a properly great 'little man' around today ... an ali, a tyson, a louis, a holyfield. He'd beat the snot out of your Fury's, price's Vitali's and co. It is only in recent years with the dramatic decline in skill in the heavyweight division that weight has become more of a determining factor. If you have too relatively unskilled guys going at it one at 210 and the other at 250 than the bigger guy is likely going to win. But once you reach heavyweight where everybody has that certain mass where anybody can knock out anybody else if you have one small guy with the speed and skills he can overcome big weight differentials. Just look at how holyfield or even haye outboxed the giant valuev. If weight was everything as you claim valuev would have demolished them.

Well I certainly do not think weight is 'everything' and I did not claim it was but I think it is definitely a significant factor. Wlad Klitschko's chin means every great heavyweight in history that you could care to name would stand a great chance of beating him but what about Vitali who's chin is significantly stronger? You bring up Valuev which I think actually bolsters my point rather than hidners it. This guy had very limited ability and yet held a portion of the heavyweight championship. A guy with his skill level should not have been anywhere close to that level, the main reason he was was because he had a significant height and weight advantage. The claim about the lack of talent at heavyweight in recent times has been overblown, the heavyweight division has very rarely been stacked with much talent.

Joe Louis in his prime weighed between roughly 200-215 pounds, as you point out David Haye fought Wlad at about 210. David Haye moved a lot and engaged little, therefore avoided a lot of damage. Louis did not move as well as Haye. If he landed the bigger blows first i'm certain Louis was big enough and powerful enough to knock Wlad and even Vitali out but what if they land big shots on him first? After all Louis fought moving forward and didn't have the greatest defence and both the Klitschko's would have significant reach advantages over Louis. Weight would thus be relevant. The equivalent weight difference between Haye and Wlad was roughly equivalent between the difference between Floyd Mayweather fighting at Welterweight against Andre Ward fighting at Super Middleweight, would you not think that weight would matter in that encounter?

[Jab to the body]

Smokin Joe is a better all time great heavyweight

[Ascended]

Well it would be easy for Frazier since he was way more advanced never would he struggle or be beat

[them_apples]

Weight is vitally important, if it wasn't there would be no weight classes. Marciano's highest weight was I believe 189 pounds and the majority of fighters he beat were under 200 pounds, todays Cruiserweights. If Marciano fought one of the Klitschko's he'd be facing a man weighing 240-250 pounds,. That means he'd be facing a man that was at least about 27% of his own body weight heavier than him. You don't think that is relevant? That is what is so relevant about the size and weight of heavyweights of today, heavyweights have simply got heavier as time has worn on. Therefore the comparisons throuh history are harder to make and probably suggest that because of the weight that newer heavyweights could probably beat older ones even if their skill level is lower.

his highest weight was actually 193. I think him and frazier actually weighed the same at one point. Rocky then proceeded to become the “hardest man to kill” and went on his rigorous training regime. I dont know how many big men he stopped, but Johnny shkor was 6 ft 4 220+ lbs. there were a lot of big lugs the lhws he fought stopped as well - so they were around just not considered the same calibre as charles and moore who were A grade light heavies.

you also have to remember joe louis was 200-205 lbs in his prime and was stopping 6 ft 7 270 lbs oponents, so the size thing shouldn’t be held with such high regard. Same with frazier. 205 lbs beating 240 lb oponents. Not just beating them out muscling them as well.

david haye and joe louis are not the same. Haye put on muscle in the gym. His skull and hands are small. Joe took off weight in the gym, his fists and head are huge. Out side of this it doesn’t matter. Joe louis is just way better than david haye in every facet even defense.

Joe refs the quarry vs frazier fight if you wanna see how big Joe is