Is Sam Langford the greatest fighter never to win a world title?

[ShoulderRoll]

Did he ever fight a non-North American?

I think I'm starting to see why you don't have much respect for the fighters from the Golden Age.

At that time North American boxing, and in particular boxing in the U.S., was the best in the world.

Fighting a non-North American would have been a step back in terms of his resume.

[Humean]

I think I'm starting to see why you don't have much respect for the fighters from the Golden Age.

At that time North American boxing, and in particular boxing in the U.S., was the best in the world.

Fighting a non-North American would have been a step back in terms of his resume.

Couldn't I turn it back on you or others, nostalgia for the time Americans were routinely the best at boxing, bemoaning the decline of American boxing as a decline in boxing simpliciter?

It would false to say that there were not top European welterweight and middleweights in the late 1930s and 1940s. Cerdan was certainly the cream of the crop but there were others.

[ShoulderRoll]

Couldn't I turn it back on you or others, nostalgia for the time Americans were routinely the best at boxing, bemoaning the decline of American boxing as a decline in boxing simpliciter.

The number of boxers and boxing gyms and boxing shows was at an all time high in this country back then. And the level of competition was such that many techniques and tactics had to be developed in order to rise above the pack.

A lot of that knowledge has been lost or forgotten. It's not a matter of being proud of US boxing history(which we have every right to be) it's just a fact.

[joeandthebums]

Eh?? Top 30 ever ? Not close, not top 100 even. He is a Sumbu Kalambay type that had it but never garnered what he should've

Fair enough. Thanks.

[Humean]

The number of boxers and boxing gyms and boxing shows was at an all time high in this country back then. And the level of competition was such that many techniques and tactics had to be developed in order to rise above the pack.

A lot of that knowledge has been lost or forgotten. It's not a matter of being proud of US boxing history(which we have every right to be) it's just a fact.

That is a complete fairytale.

Having high numbers of poor men trying to ape out a living in boxing doesn't increase the relevant competition, it creates a high number of mediocre fighters fighting on dull cards in front of a few hundred spectators.

Do you not think there was a vibrant boxing scene in Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands back then?

The truth is that the sport was very provincial back then and I don't just mean because it was largely dominated by Americans. Boxing then was largely North America plus Western and Central Europe. Look at the high volume of exceptional fighters that have arrived from the rest of the world since around the late 50s onwards.

Did the fighters and young trainers not learn from the old masters, was that knowledge not passed down all the way to today? Where was the knowledge lost? What about alternative ideas developed in other countries, or were the only accurate methods developed in the United States in the 20s, 30s, and 40s? Do the Japanese not know how to box? The steady stream of excellent fighters they have produced since Shirai says they do. And yet how many Japanese boxers are in the International boxing hall of fame? One. Surely you can see that there is an extremely distorted view of the history of the sport that is expressed online and in books and articles in the English language.

[Holywarrior]

Fair enough. Thanks.

Did you look at the Wade piece I linked you up?

[joeandthebums]

Did you look at the Wade piece I linked you up?

Read the Robinson article and only really skimmed through rest, but some nice information.

He mentions the 1945 Burley fight offer to Robinson in Moore article, I have found confirmation of this in print, but only from his hometown of Pittsburgh - doesn't seem to have come up on any of the New York nor the big African-American papers of the time radar.

The writer seems legit too, released a new book where he has his own list of greatest fighters... interested to know who he picked.

[billeau2]

so Where do you rank Burley, compared to Langford? Burley really only fought at Middleweight and Langford fought and beat class from Lightweight to Heavyweight

This isn't really close, IMO

Thats not the point.... Heres what I do see: two great supremely accomplished fighters, both of whom arguably are less heralded, better, etc. There is no outclassing here, its not like we are comparing peter Nealy and Joe Frazier.

I don't list for this reason...While I admire guys who can do it....I have a hell of a time saying "well Sweet Pea was superb but the will o the wisp was one better." To me? there are a class of fighters who are elite and at any given moment one can be better than another....I can understand someone saying Langsford was better than Burley, but I would preface that with a statement to the effect that it is close....Its just hard to say any fighter is more accomplished when referring to the set of boxing elites...

[Rspen46]

Not!

Burley

If Langford were so awesome in so many divisions, he would have won at the very least 1 Title, maybe some in the lower weights avoided him, but not the heavier ones.

I don't care what anyone says, a 5-6 fighter does not give any top 20 HW I know a fight he can't handle, maybe top 25 all-time.

He was probably at his best as a Jr. MW or MW early on in his career, he would have been a good LW or JWW or WW as he aged, got a little bigger and better in his career as he moved up in weight, but fighting Dempsey is one the of the fights I wish had happened, also him against Tunney, Miske, Uzcudun, and Greb at more his best weight would have been good, but he still loses all those fights and the cries would continue how he never won, he never won, because he was not good enough to do so, good yes, good enough, NO>

[McGoorty]

Charley Burley or Sam Langford

Burley not in Sam's class I am afraid, one is a very good fighter the other a very great one