Police are throwing flashbang grenades at protesters

[MonsieurGeorges]

You have to use the machinery of democracy. The press, the right to assembly, the right to run for office, the right to lobby congress. If you don't you're just a bunch of hippies burning flags.

they burned more than flags at the spot in dc, you could smell it down the street

[squealpiggy]

they burned more than flags at the spot in dc, you could smell it down the street

This is a huge issue. When every fucker at the protest is the sort of counter-culture dropout druggy trust-fund student fuck that everyone with an actual job hates even more than they hate the bankers that stole their pension then what's the point?

You won't change the system when the general consensus is that you don't even change your clothes.

[MonsieurGeorges]

This is a huge issue. When every fucker at the protest is the sort of counter-culture dropout druggy trust-fund student fuck that everyone with an actual job hates even more than they hate the bankers that stole their pension then what's the point?

You won't change the system when the general consensus is that you don't even change your clothes.

Yes thats true, I went down and saw it 2 or 3 times when they were in full party mode. Lots of those guys were heroin and crack addicts, hardcore drunks etc.

Then again, I would much rather argue against the "idea" than attack the "man himself". If we consider ourselves to be intellectuals we can't resort to petty tactics like calling them unwashed ****s.

I have argued politics one on one with some of these guys and it is easy to dismantle their ideas while keeping the moral high ground. The majority of them are just angry confused people with no outlet & no direction

[Drunken Cat]

You have to use the machinery of democracy. The press, the right to assembly, the right to run for office, the right to lobby congress. If you don't you're just a bunch of hippies burning flags.

And, this is the point on which we respectfully disagree.

More accurately, I understand what you are saying and I disagree with it. I don't know whether you understand or respect what I said, but if you do so, than cheers to you.

[squealpiggy]

And, this is the point on which we respectfully disagree.

More accurately, I understand what you are saying and I disagree with it. I don't know whether you understand or respect what I said, but if you do so, than cheers to you.

So you think it's constructive to completely reject the mechanisms of democracy? Do you honestly think there will be a revolution, and that this would be something desirable?

[MonsieurGeorges]

So you think it's constructive to completely reject the mechanisms of democracy? Do you honestly think there will be a revolution, and that this would be something desirable?

its clear he doesn't know what he wants, all he knows is that it makes you feel cool to fight the Man

[squealpiggy]

Then again, I would much rather argue against the "idea" than attack the "man himself". If we consider ourselves to be intellectuals we can't resort to petty tactics like calling them unwashed ****s.

But in many cases the ideas are sound. US politics IS a mess. Ordinary people ARE under-represented. Lobbyists DO threaten to undermine the democratic process.

The problem is not the ideas, it's the absolute wastes of space who espouse them.

Which is where Occupy truly differs from the teabaggers. The teabaggers are on the whole a set of reactionary bigots and morons. But their IDEAS are also bad. It's less exasperating to be faced with a bunch of brain donors and their ridiculous ideas. It's another thing to see people with a genuine grievance throwing away their momentum in pursuit of a vendetta against authority.

[MonsieurGeorges]

But in many cases the ideas are sound. US politics IS a mess. Ordinary people ARE under-represented. Lobbyists DO threaten to undermine the democratic process.

The problem is not the ideas, it's the absolute wastes of space who espouse them.

Which is where Occupy truly differs from the teabaggers. The teabaggers are on the whole a set of reactionary bigots and morons. But their IDEAS are also bad. It's less exasperating to be faced with a bunch of brain donors and their ridiculous ideas. It's another thing to see people with a genuine grievance throwing away their momentum in pursuit of a vendetta against authority.

There ideas are all half-baked at best though

look all the guys I personally spoke with they basically said some things like that. Everyone knows politics are a mess and that ordinary people are under represented, these guys knew that...they yelled in my face actually.

But, when I took it a step further and said "Why do you think that is?" or "What kind of events from history are similar to our current situation. What can we learn from that going forward?" or most importantly "Say you TAKE THE POWER BACK what do you then plan to do with it?"

No one had anything but sop****ric answers full of simple-minded naivete. I saw no leaders down there, they can not organize a line of tents what makes them think they could organize a nation state. There ideas were garbage and their presentation is garbage, atleast at the DC one. It was grown men that spoke like teeenagers

[Drunken Cat]

So you think it's constructive to completely reject the mechanisms of democracy? Do you honestly think there will be a revolution, and that this would be something desirable?

You said yourself, if I am not mistake, somewhere, that the system is rotten to the core. So how can you play within this rotten system.

I never intimated as to what I think is desirable. But at some point, certain things become inevitable. Where it concerns things like social movements, they are really phenomena unto themselves, we can analyze, commentate, criticize, etc., but it doesn't really matter what we think. I personally think, however, that the Occupy movement is reflective of an idea who's time has come. That is just my opinion. I live in Tokyo, and I'd probably join the protests if I could, but I haven't had an opportunity, none the least because of geography. But whatever I have said is just my opinion. However, I don't believe that the machinery of 'democracy' is a viable conduit for social change, anymore. My opinion once again, but what I believe is that representative government in the US basically died in 2001 with the supreme court ruling which installed Bush as president. You cannot work within a system which is corrupted to the core, basically for the same reasons that elections in the Soviet Union were farces.

[squealpiggy]

You said yourself, if I am not mistake, somewhere, that the system is rotten to the core. So how can you play within this rotten system.

I never intimated as to what I think is desirable. But at some point, certain things become inevitable. Where it concerns things like social movements, they are really phenomena unto themselves, we can analyze, commentate, criticize, etc., but it doesn't really matter what we think. I personally think, however, that the Occupy movement is reflective of an idea who's time has come. That is just my opinion. I live in Tokyo, and I'd probably join the protests if I could, but I haven't had an opportunity, none the least because of geography. But whatever I have said is just my opinion. However, I don't believe that the machinery of 'democracy' is a viable conduit for social change, anymore. My opinion once again, but what I believe is that representative government in the US basically died in 2001 with the supreme court ruling which installed Bush as president. You cannot work within a system which is corrupted to the core, basically for the same reasons that elections in the Soviet Union were farces.

Some voting irregularities in one district in a single election should not be a reason to scrap the whole thing wholesale. US politics is rotten to the core because of lobbying and money. Political reform in America has to begin with greater transparency in the lobbying process. And this will be achieved by voters declining to vote for people with close ties to lobbyists, and by telling their reps they won't vote for them if they put the interests of professional salespeople ahead of those of the electorate.

Electoral reform in the US needs must be a piecemeal process, not a revolutionary one. You start by disabling the lobby bloc and you end with changing the way the people are represented. I think a parliamentary system is more fairly representative than a presidential one, for a start.