Top 50 Non U.S. ATG LIST

[Welsh Jon]

He beat the entire division except Gibbons... and Gibbons had ample opportunity to fight Darcy,......... Gibbons would have made twice the money in Australia, you can say Gibbons MAY be better over 10 rounds but it is ridiculous to think Mike had a hope of winning over 20........ 10 round fights should be wiped from the record books...... they are usually exhibitions of one guy running away from another sticking a jab out, That's why I hate todays boxers........ I have read a lot more on Darcy than anyone here, WAY MORE, I think I know what I'm talking about,..... but I'm just an Aussie and we have never known anything about boxing,.... seeing as though we are pretty dumb.

FFS! Why do you seem to take anything written against Darcy as a slight against yourself? I doubt anyone here doubts your knowledge.

All I've done is suggested 4 non-European middleweights who I think had a better resume than Darcy. I didn't say Aussies have no boxing history, I didn't say Aussies were dumb and I certain didn't say you were dumb.

Saying Carlos Monzon, Bob Fitzsimmons, Dick Tiger and Nino Benvenuti, 4 great fighters who boxed into their 30's achieved more than a great boxer who died at 21 is perfectly reasonable.

[JAB5239]

FFS! Why do you seem to take anything written against Darcy as a slight against yourself? I doubt anyone here doubts your knowledge.

All I've done is suggested 4 non-European middleweights who I think had a better resume than Darcy. I didn't say Aussies have no boxing history, I didn't say Aussies were dumb and I certain didn't say you were dumb.

Saying Carlos Monzon, Bob Fitzsimmons, Dick Tiger and Nino Benvenuti, 4 great fighters who boxed into their 30's achieved more than a great boxer who died at 21 is perfectly reasonable.

With all due respect McG, he's got a point.

[Greatest1942]

Some sources are political......................................... . LOOK MATE there are only 21 million of us here versus 300 million Americans....... of course, if the Americans want to, they could smother us in Trillions of words and we'd drown........ Darcy would have simply walked through Gibbons, it would have been a F***ing massacre...... I have to go to another thread before before I really flip out.

.I'm also talking about those who saw both fight,.... for future reference their common opponents are, Christie, Chip, McGoorty, Clabby, Brown and one other (sudden blank(

Clabby never said that Darcy could beat Gibbons, neither did Chip. The way Clabby was humiliated by Gibbons, he would have been hard pressed to say so.Do you want to see the reports? Same with Chip. McGoorty claimed that Darcy was the best...yea true. Brown claimed that Miske and company would have cleaned up Darcy.

"Clean up Gibbons"
No one did it. Not even Jeff Smith , whom DArcy was hard pressed against. Why should a man earning sufficient money in his own country go to a foreign land. Gibbons had money, enough opponents why should he go to Australia? If Darcy had every fighter in Australia he wouldnot have come to America either...Fact is when Darcy came to America, Gibbons and his manager chases him around for a match, which due to various reasons never took place. I think I proved it before...IN 20 rounds? As I said you don't have an iota of evidence that Gibbons would have done worse in 20 rounds...you are simply guessing...I saw both of them fight and Gibbons was extremely skillful. Darcy would have found him a hard nut to crack.

And understand one thing Gibbons was different from McGoorty et al who had bad gambling problems. He knew how to save his money....you just don't go to a foreign land just because someone asked you to go. When DArcy came here Gibbons chased him around much more than DArcy did him...for whatever reasons...do you wanna see those newspaper reports again.

Besides let me tell you another thing , Darcy's middle weight win was not even recognized in America, where middleweight limit was 158 pounds where as in Australia it was 160back then. It was upto Darcy to come to America and prove himself against Gibbons, Mccoy, Dillon, Ahearns etc etc....

When DArcy was winning these were theh guys being discussed...Fact is you are choosing to ignore the fact that while Gibbons did not go to Australia, he desperately wanted Darcy here and even signed a contract with his purported
manager O'Sullivan.


There is a difference between the way Clabby lost to Gibbons and to Darcy...Clabby was humiliated against Gibbons, as was Brown.

"Hope of Winning"
Like I said most people of that era would have placed their bets on Gibbons even in a 25 round bout.Simple. He did not run around so much that he could not do it for 20 rounds...I think you might not give Gibbons a chance in 2011 but back then most guys would have had him as favourite...Corbett did it for 20 rounds and I dont see why Gibbons could not...do you have any prove to the contrary? FYI Gibbons outpointed Clabby in 15, Art Godfrey in 15 and was good enough to do so...do you think somehow magically he wont have enough in 20 rounder?

"How do you work it out"

I gave you ample sources stating Gibbons was rated as the best middle weight of that period, even rated as the best of the game.Compared to the frequency of these Darcy was recognized as the best far less...While Mcgoorty Holland praised him, Smith, Brown etc did not jump on the bandwagon at all.

[McGoorty]

lets see

Clabby never said that Darcy could beat Gibbons, neither did Chip. The way Clabby was humiliated by Gibbons, he would have been hard pressed to say so.Do you want to see the reports? Same with Chip. McGoorty claimed that Darcy was the best...yea true. Brown claimed that Miske and company would have cleaned up Darcy. All Brown said there is bombast about Miske, I have no idea what his beef was, but fact is Darcy did beat Brown twice and by a good margin in both, Brown did very well to last the distance. Brown was obviously a proud man, maybe he took those defeats to heart,... and you are still using tainted reports from a deliberate get Darcy smear campaign, I thought you had come to accept that. You cannot just take every report as the truth especially when he was banned for fighting, I thought you had come to realise all this but now you seem to have gone back to your original stance.

"Clean up Gibbons"
No one did it. Not even Jeff Smith , whom DArcy was hard pressed against. Why should a man earning sufficient money in his own country go to a foreign land. Gibbons had money, enough opponents why should he go to Australia? If Darcy had every fighter in Australia he wouldnot have come to America either...Fact is when Darcy came to America, Gibbons and his manager chases him around for a match, which due to various reasons never took place. I think I proved it before...IN 20 rounds? As I said you don't have an iota of evidence that Gibbons would have done worse in 20 rounds...you are simply guessing...I saw both of them fight and Gibbons was extremely skillful. Darcy would have found him a hard nut to crack. There was a lot of offers and much interest here for Gibbons to come downunder. Of course financial security is a good reason,... but rest assured Darcy would have loved to fight Gibbons. It is a shame he didn't fight Darcy, I really wish they did because I believe that Darcy would have beaten Gibbons, not an easy task but lets face it Gibbons needed Darcy too,..... He could have been very famous if he won,........ But yes Darcy had the ability, speed, chin, power and everything else in spades, to beat Gibbons down to the canvas, after all at 21 Darcy was still improving and yet to reach his prime and there is simply enough evidence that this was a fighter from Mars or further out. Gibbons never fought anything like him in his prime, he had beaten a GREAT name who was green............... a kid who'd get even. Thanks Harry for sorting things out eventually....... One things for sure I hold Darcy a bit higher than you do.

And understand one thing Gibbons was different from McGoorty et al who had bad gambling problems. He knew how to save his money....you just don't go to a foreign land just because someone asked you to go. When DArcy came here Gibbons chased him around much more than DArcy did him...for whatever reasons...do you wanna see those newspaper reports again. Not really, I'd rather go and find the thread where we talked about this exact question,.. and post the link. Why repeat it all again Maybe you should start a thread called The Case Against Darcy or something like that and I'll have to spend ages collecting and downloading as many reports, statements and stuff............. It might take a while, and not all the old sources are out there, "The Newcastle Herald" for instance, where there should be reports on Darcy from as far back as 1911....... I think you are forcing me to write a book,.... 2018 at the earliest.

Besides let me tell you another thing , Darcy's middle weight win was not even recognized in America, where middleweight limit was 158 pounds where as in Australia it was 160back then. It was upto Darcy to come to America and prove himself against Gibbons, Mccoy, Dillon, Ahearns etc etc.... Of course not, the Americans had to have another belt....... Come on, How is the American belt legitimate... what was it ? three years and not one American MW title fight... seems to me Darcy was champion everywhere except for north America......... And didn't Darcy go to America ??? who was this Sergeant James Leslie Darcy who died in Memphis then.... Just jivin ya there,... but yes Darcy was in the process of challenging the only decent MW that he'd yet to fight, and then there are your LHW's and HW's...

When DArcy was winning these were theh guys being discussed...Fact is you are choosing to ignore the fact that while Gibbons did not go to Australia, he desperately wanted Darcy here and even signed a contract with his purported
manager O'Sullivan. Darcy went to America specifically for Gibbons... you know Darcy wasn't yellow. The only reason the fight never happened was the fact that he was then banned from fighting in the country........ FACT


There is a difference between the way Clabby lost to Gibbons and to Darcy...Clabby was humiliated against Gibbons, as was Brown. Clabby admitted to anyone that Darcy was just too good for him....... He even admits to only punching Darcy without power because he said he knew that Darcy would knock him out... FACT..... so the score on that is Darcy and Gibbons EVEN............ KO Brown had no hope against either of them,, again EVEN

"Hope of Winning"
Like I said most people of that era would have placed their bets on Gibbons even in a 25 round bout.Simple. He did not run around so much that he could not do it for 20 rounds...I think you might not give Gibbons a chance in 2011 but back then most guys would have had him as favourite...Corbett did it for 20 rounds and I dont see why Gibbons could not...do you have any prove to the contrary? FYI Gibbons outpointed Clabby in 15, Art Godfrey in 15 and was good enough to do so...do you think somehow magically he wont have enough in 20 rounder? Most people who said that had never seen,,,, as for the 20 rounds I have read various guys stating that Gibbons had one chance and that was over 10 rounds, then others say that Darcy beats him under all conditions,,,,, but soooo many think that Les wins in 20 rounds..... There is a massive difference between 20 rounds and 10

"How do you work it out"

I gave you ample sources stating Gibbons was rated as the best middle weight of that period, even rated as the best of the game.Compared to the frequency of these Darcy was recognized as the best far less...While Mcgoorty Holland praised him, Smith, Brown etc did not jump on the bandwagon at all.

..................................................

[McGoorty]

FFS! Why do you seem to take anything written against Darcy as a slight against yourself? I doubt anyone here doubts your knowledge. It's the slights against Darcy that get to me sometimes, it only gets to me if someone thinks I'm making things up. The smear campaign which was more the fault of baker and the Aussie Government who used Darcy in their rotten attempts to force conscription upon a free people (me and mine)...... And the smear campaign got even more vicious in America... why do you think Darcy couldn't get a fight over there ??..... none of it is Darcy's fault.

All I've done is suggested 4 non-European middleweights who I think had a better resume than Darcy. I didn't say Aussies have no boxing history, I didn't say Aussies were dumb and I certain didn't say you were dumb. I was addressing other blokes there mostly, I think Les was a better fighter, there is more to boxing than just a tally of fights. And is it not true that beating most of the best fighters on the planet at ages 17, 18, 19 and 20.all of his losses came before age 19... and is undefeated in his last 20 fights against the very best in the world...... at least twice as remarkable as a man who fought every major and most other fights of his life as man in his prime years.... remember Darcy had at lest 4 years to go before most fighters are at the peak of their physical abilities so I can argue that he had 46 wins and oh how many stoppages,.... and he was yet to reach his best which IS PHENOMENAL ........ I grant you those four are dead set great fighters... so is Les. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My comments about Australia are a defence of our heritage, I find the prospect of The Absolute greatest fighter to ever come out of Australia, well if Fitzsimmons isn't an Aussie,... but lets face it, Bob was far more of an Aussie than he was anything else,.. he really loved OZ..... And to call him a kiwi is possible, but Bob basically grew up here... so if he's Australian as most US papers said he was,,,, then maybe Darcy is second..... but Larry Foley, who was as partisan a Fitzsimmons man as could be...... Larry taught Fitzsimmons everything he knew about boxing, (Foley was a champion bare-knuckle fighter taught by Jem Mace),... Larry Foley said after seeing Darcy fight said that Darcy was the greatest fighter he ever saw and he was talking from seeing them both... now why would Bob's coach say a thing like that ???... He MUST have believed it.. --------------------------------------------------- Anyway as I meant to say, if Darcy isn't so great, then we don't have any very great fighters,... although I think Bob was an Aussie, at least in his soul he was.

Saying Carlos Monzon, Bob Fitzsimmons, Dick Tiger and Nino Benvenuti, 4 great fighters who boxed into their 30's achieved more than a great boxer who died at 21 is perfectly reasonable. It is reasonable, but also there is an obvious reason for that....... but there aren't many who were that good that they were already an ATG at age 20........ unfortunately Les never stepped into the ring at age 21 or any other age........ Thing is he's not just regarded by most as a HOF'er, ATG but I can show you many books with the quote,.. even from Americans on fight films during THE FIFTIES.. the word that usually comes before the word is "The LEGENDARY", and I don't think anybody from our time has the right to take that away from him.

I didn't mean to get to worked up before, but I have had to repeat and repeat so many statements before I posted on yours that I went a bit overboard as I'd almost forgotten which post I was replying to.... had a nap, clear headed again.......... keep up some of the good work you've done since you've been here mate because you could be one of our better posters. And thanks for replying earlier in a calmer manner than I did, I hope I was more reasonable this time.... cheers.

[Greatest1942]

..................................................

You don't accept Browns word, Smiths word and ask me to accpet Lawless, McGoorty words? Why should I.

Here is newspaper artcile stating why Gibbons had the edge on Darcy
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...es+darcy&hl=en



http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...es+darcy&hl=en

This article plainly states that Darcy is no Ketchel and Americans wont accept him until he beats Gibbons...Ahearns is posed as the best contender for Darcy, the same guy Gibbons later knocked out in one round.

Tell me why should Gibbons go to a foreign land? When he had the fight with Dillon or others coming up, in America...Gibbons knew he was not short of challengers...Darcy knew he was, IN Australia Gibbons could have made one match that may be gave him money...One match...IN america he could make three matches that will give him money, and those three put together far outweighed the single Darcy match, when Darcy came here Gibbons showed extreme eagerness to fight him....Here it is

DARCY BALKS ON BOXING GIBBONS; SIGNER 'PANS' HIM
"Tribune" Decisions

Previosuly

"Les Darcy, Australian middleweight champion, will make his first fight in this country in a Milwaukee ring. This was the information handed out he fight by Frank Mulkern, Brewery promotor, who arrived in the city yes-..."

You blame Gibbons for not fighting Darcy? This is totally ridiculous...why he did not accept his managers signing, etc etc is out of the context...that were his internal matters fact is :-

1) darcy landed and told the press O sullivan is his manager
2) O Sullivan signed with Gibbons---Gibbons signed here too, eager to fight Darcy

3) Darcy backed out citing O Sullivan is not his manager.

If Gibbons did the same in Australia , he would be panned by darcy and the public, and Darcy was done the same in America, more so because his own country was calling for his blood.

Whether O Sullivan was a crook or not , whether Darcy was thick or not, may prove Darcy was innocent but it does not discredit Gibbons, on the other hand credits him.

"Darcy Banned"

Darcy was not banned out right...understand this...He first joined a vaudeville, ignoring good offers from fighters liek Dillon, Gibbons etc. The public thought that Darcy was ducking Gibbons...The public opinion build against him , helped by the violent propaganda from down under. It led to his banning...Darcy if he fought sooner might have escaped the ban.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...es+darcy&hl=en


Here is Gibbons himself telling what he feels like:-

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...es+darcy&hl=en

Why didn't Darcy respond? And from what I read, myself, I don't blame Gibbons.
This again talks of a failed agreement

[Greatest1942]

Most people who said that had never seen,,,, as for the 20 rounds I have read various guys stating that Gibbons had one chance and that was over 10 rounds, then others say that Darcy beats him under all conditions,,,,, but soooo many think that Les wins in 20 rounds..... There is a massive difference between 20 rounds and 10

For your info teh fight would have been 10 rounder, they actually signed for it ...So while you may say all you want about 20 rounders, the fight was signed for 10 rounders? And what you think of 10 rounders does not matter one bit, fact is what they would have decided mattered.

I said this and I will say again Gibbons fought 15 rounders and did it with ease, outpointing Clabby easily, in one. Where did you get the notion Gibbons will fight 20 rounder here in America, against Darcy.And if he did he couldnot come out the winner? No doubt from Historians writing 70 years after...

Of Darcy putting Gibbons on the mat, Harry Greb, O Dowd, Dillon et all all tried, no one did...Gibbons was never ever KO'd. not even in his last years as PRO.What makes you think Darcy could do it? There is nothing to suggest he was a bigger puncher than Dillon...

Fact is Darcy might have been held by some as the favourite, but as I have been saying most thought Gibbons was the class at middle weight, and would have been favourite to beat Darcy.

But lets not make this a Darcy vsGibbons thread, open a thread by all means if you need to argue this out.

As for Nino or Tiger , I have already explained why I think Nino had a better career.

[McGoorty]

You don't accept Browns word, Smiths word and ask me to accpet Lawless, McGoorty words? Why should I.

Here is newspaper artcile stating why Gibbons had the edge on Darcy
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...es+darcy&hl=en



http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...es+darcy&hl=en

This article plainly states that Darcy is no Ketchel and Americans wont accept him until he beats Gibbons...Ahearns is posed as the best contender for Darcy, the same guy Gibbons later knocked out in one round.

Tell me why should Gibbons go to a foreign land? When he had the fight with Dillon or others coming up, in America...Gibbons knew he was not short of challengers...Darcy knew he was, IN Australia Gibbons could have made one match that may be gave him money...One match...IN america he could make three matches that will give him money, and those three put together far outweighed the single Darcy match, when Darcy came here Gibbons showed extreme eagerness to fight him....Here it is

DARCY BALKS ON BOXING GIBBONS; SIGNER 'PANS' HIM
"Tribune" Decisions

Previosuly

"Les Darcy, Australian middleweight champion, will make his first fight in this country in a Milwaukee ring. This was the information handed out he fight by Frank Mulkern, Brewery promotor, who arrived in the city yes-..."

You blame Gibbons for not fighting Darcy? This is totally ridiculous...why he did not accept his managers signing, etc etc is out of the context...that were his internal matters fact is :-

1) darcy landed and told the press O sullivan is his manager
2) O Sullivan signed with Gibbons---Gibbons signed here too, eager to fight Darcy

3) Darcy backed out citing O Sullivan is not his manager.

If Gibbons did the same in Australia , he would be panned by darcy and the public, and Darcy was done the same in America, more so because his own country was calling for his blood.

Whether O Sullivan was a crook or not , whether Darcy was thick or not, may prove Darcy was innocent but it does not discredit Gibbons, on the other hand credits him.

"Darcy Banned"

Darcy was not banned out right...understand this...He first joined a vaudeville, ignoring good offers from fighters liek Dillon, Gibbons etc. The public thought that Darcy was ducking Gibbons...The public opinion build against him , helped by the violent propaganda from down under. It led to his banning...Darcy if he fought sooner might have escaped the ban.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...es+darcy&hl=en


Here is Gibbons himself telling what he feels like:-

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...es+darcy&hl=en

Why didn't Darcy respond? And from what I read, myself, I don't blame Gibbons.
This again talks of a failed agreement

Smear campaign propaganda//// and I don't blame Gibbons............. He had every intention of fight the above,... you make it sound like Darcy was yellow.... and that's just laughable, you are blaming Darcy when you should be blaming the dozens of shysters around him, the principle being Rickard, O'Sullivan and Curley.... if you can't see that he was being manipulated in a foreign country where he had NOT ONE F*****n friend,.... just bull**** artists........ and you blame him for making money from Vaudeville when he couldn't get a legitimate match..... he was going broke fast. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Was this Gibbons bout to be held outside NY ???..... well if O'Sullivan signed a match outside of NY then he was treading on Tex Rickards toes....... Rickard had told darcy that he was only there for him if he fought at Madison Square Garden... Rickards money was tied up there....... I don't see how the Gibbons fight ever had a chance.

[Greatest1942]

Smear campaign propaganda//// and I don't blame Gibbons............. He had every intention of fight the above,... you make it sound like Darcy was yellow.... and that's just laughable, you are blaming Darcy when you should be blaming the dozens of shysters around him, the principle being Rickard, O'Sullivan and Curley.... if you can't see that he was being manipulated in a foreign country where he had NOT ONE F*****n friend,.... just bull**** artists........ and you blame him for making money from Vaudeville when he couldn't get a legitimate match..... he was going broke fast. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Was this Gibbons bout to be held outside NY ???..... well if O'Sullivan signed a match outside of NY then he was treading on Tex Rickards toes....... Rickard had told darcy that he was only there for him if he fought at Madison Square Garden... Rickards money was tied up there....... I don't see how the Gibbons fight ever had a chance.

Yes teh Gibbons bout was outside NY. I have no intention to make Darcy sound yellow, what I wanted to convey was that Gibbons wanted the fight and Darcy through his foolishness or naivety followed the advice of people which landed him in trouble.

The Americans were as much to blame as the Australians here.

If the Australians will not accept the 158 pound limit back then why should the Americans accept the Australians claim.

I have an artcile which states that Gibbons beat Chip and should have been the champ but was not as Chip was earlier KO'd by Al Mccoy...

I hate that guy, but as much as I dislike him , he was the man who beat the man to be the champ.

Gibbons beat Al Mcoy later but found out that title wont change hands.

[Kid McCoy]

Mate AL McCOY was the worst champion until Mundine....... McCoy was not the true champ,.... you have some reading to do on him... when you do that, you'll dismiss McCoy for the fake he was....... Darcy also had a belt that said WORLD CHAMPION....... McCoy defended once in 4 years,,,.... and got knocked out.... glass jaw ????....... Darcy defended and never lost to around 10 or more times,...... The NZ TRUTH.... called darcy "THE ABSOLUTE MW CHAMPION OF THE WORLD........ The title was recognised in the southern hemisphere and I know the French said it was.............. Darcy is twice as good as you think he is.

I did say McCoy was a joke, among the most mediocre world champions you'll find in any era. However if you're talking legitimacy then he had a better claim to the middleweight title than anyone else. Klaus was the established champ, he lost to George Chip and then Chip was KO'd by McCoy. What was the lineage of Darcy's world title?