How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Nick Name]

You brought in Lourdes as an argument. The fact that you are now furiously backpedaling is testament to how much of a poor example it was and how little you had thought about it.

Furiously what? Your manipulations are becoming more and more pathetic... I said that thousands miraculous healings have happened in Lourdes... That only a few have been recognised by the Church is not important, what's important is that those persons have been healed after going to Lourdes to be healed. There are lots of miracles and saints who are never and will never be officially recognised by the Church. I didn't backpedal at all on Lourdes.

In other words science and religion are incompatible because science deals with reality and religion does not.

Nope: science deals with reason, physics and technology, religion deals with faith, ethics and spirituality. They actually are complementary and if separated, they both won't serve mankind correctly.

You haven't read it so I don't know why you're asking if I have.

Because it clearly tells that Science and Religion are compatible and complementary.

Because "spiritual matters" are imaginary.

Have you ever killed somebody? Everyone that I personally knew who has been in the army and killed people, has troubles with his conscience. Some have even troubles sleeping. That's because they have the regret of interrupting someone else's life. That's what I call a spiritual matter. It's basically everything that regards life. Enough said. If you start elucubrating over this life-death matter with your silly, sarcastic and useless speculation, I will not answer to you. The picture you posted about the Nazi camp was already enough to feed me up. If you joke about these things, you're out of it. I'll just forget about you and get on with my life as I could be doing much more useful, funny or constructive things for my life right now.

This topic is about threatening people who do not believe in a specific brand of superstition with the silly and unpleasant concept of hell and I have been responding to it appropriately. You decided to butt in using what you thought were novel apologetics but which were, in fact, centuries old. Every argument you have made has been sillier than the last and now you're desperately trying to paint yourself as the victim of some sort of bullying. Your sense of smug religious self satisfaction is one of the issues I have with organised religion. It is based upon sitting in a circle and agreeing with one another, and when your assertions are challenged you are forced to scramble to try and counter how silly they are.

The more I go further, the more I think I'm wasting my time with you. This topic is just not for you I'm afraid.

My family is catholic so once again you've made an assumption which is demonstrably wrong. Furthermore I'm not intending to "discredit all the good that religion does" particularly. Remember this is a thread stating that if you're not sharing the TS's particular delusion then you will be horribly punished by an allegedly loving god.

BEEP! BEEP! BEEP!... What's that? Oh, my personal hopeless case alarm! Let's see... Uhm, it looks like a red code: Battling atheist full of bitter anger, delusional personality, received catholic education... Probably early childish trauma and/or unresolved relationship with father... Uhm I better stop here since I'm not a shrink. Nor a priest/professional soulsavior.
I'm sorry buddy... If i were you I'd just tell my dad I love him, but you seem to prefer arguing in the internet over your personal imaginary battle against religion. I'm more and more convinced there's nothing I can do to make you change idea over religion.

Don't worry, before and after every argument I make I chop some logs and fix up my 78 mustang before watching the hockey with a beer.

Very nice... You add potato crisps and ketchup too? Or is that too heavy for your cholesterol level?

No they weren't.

The Nazis manipulated Christianity with propagandistic purposes: they elaborated an ideology called "Positive Christianity" in which they claim that Jesus was an Arian (I mean, come on... He was born in Middle East how could he be an Arian???) and murdered a lot of catholic priests too. How's that for a good catholic?
The theoretical basics of Nazism were also publically condemned by the Church with Pius XI's encyclic Mit brennender Sorge.

Man... I'm almost astonished to see how your hatred towards religion (wich probably comes form a personal delusion towards members of your catholic family) has blinded you and prevented you to speak naturally about the most simple matters. Your relentless desire to manipulate my theories is so strong that you end up damaging your own purpose to win this very argument (i.e. finding the truth).

P.S. Several Nazi hierachists including Hitler also committed suicide, an action that no true believer would do.

No they didn't.

Of course they did, and failed horribly.

A big concern in science is the question of ethics. The Nazis didn't have any, hence Herr Mengele's lack of them.

The Angel of Death of the Nazi camps Josef Mengele was in fact a catholic, the same as Hitler by the way.

Mengele and Hitler were raised catholics (as I said previously, Hitler invented "Positive Christianity" for propagandistic reasons which he invented by himself and it's not at all recognised by the Church), but ended up going agaisnt the very principles of their own Faith. Just like... a-hem... Yourself.

The Nazis (or at least Hitler) did respect Jesus' words.

Sure... Sure they did... Boy oh boy.

But Hitler believed in a conspiracy theory that Paul the Jewish saint had corrupted the religion. Hitler was plenty religious though.

Sure... That was his only little mistake... Naughty naughty Hitler...

And now we get to the punchline of this section of the discussion: The picture I posted was nothing to do with Nazis and in fact showed prisoners in a Soviet Gulag. I could equally show pictures of people being burned for witchcraft in Africa or of people being beheaded for "adultery" in Afghanistan or of the sort of devices used by catholic interrogators in the middle ages to show the love that connects us all to those accused of heresy...

I'm sorry... I'm afraid it's too late for the apologies and that picture you posted on the concentration camps was heavy, as it is also your twisted "philosphy" behind that. Oh and if you ever plan to delete it... I got one saved in my message with your quote into... So the people who will read see will acknowledge your rather depraved and uncoherent mentality.
Reality sucks at times, isn't it?

The simple fact is that your definition of "love" is simply not reflected in reality.

Yeah... The world is rough, buddy... I know, I know... Earth ain't no Paradise.

Your soul doesn't exist.

Oh yes it does, baby. A soul that can be saved and live forever... And I've probably never been as glad about it as I am now.

You said there was evidence, we asked you for it, you were unable to deliver.

Well, no one ever was able to bring scientific evidence of God and no one is interested into it. So it's definately not a big deal. The evidence is in all the miracles that happened in people's lives anyway. And there are millions who can testify.

You said there was evidence, we asked you for it, you were unable to deliver.

Uhm... you already said that. Do I stil hear echoes of a self-victorious chant that shatters leaving place to a sad lament?

It's more an issue that you haven't given your own alleged faith even the most rudimentary scrutiny. You simply haven't given it much thought. Now you're in a crisis of faith because the arguments you borrowed that seemed unassailable are in fact smoke and mirrors and do not stand up to reality.

As I said, this thread served me right to prove my faith, and now it's stronger than before: what doesn't kill me makes my spirit stronger.

If you had bothered contemplating your own religion then you might not be getting quite so mad about it now. I am amused however that you can accuse me of being "not very manly" and then passive-aggressively attempt to turn this situation around and cry that you're being bullied by a superior intellect. Wah wah.

Come on, man... How could I be bullied by a nerd? That's pathetic.
Get your girly hands off that keyboard for a while...

[Nick Name]

I don't see how I've been dishonest. Let's rewind to the beginning of my argument with you here: YOU STARTED IT!
I simply pointed out how your arguments are stupid.

Nope. You just profitated of my ignorance to try and bring the argument towards a field that has nothing to do with religion, and tried to win the argument by hijacking the thread, i.e. going off-topic.
It sure was a stupid mistake of me trying to use science to treat spirituality, in fact if you were really interested in the truth, you would have told me, like user Kastrioti said, that I was simply fixing the bug with the wrong tool, instead you expressly insisted on that scientific subject, and also deliberately calumniated me calling me a dishonest. And that's because you are not really interested in pursuing the truth about religion, but you are only interested in discrediting it out of your personal hatred towards God and probably also towards some members your catholic family. You don't recognise that, therefore you are not honest to yourself, to me and to the readers of this thread.

But you did say that there was evidence and when asked for it failed to deliver it.

Again you are indulging in the dirty manipulation I've exposed earlier. Which is damaging to the pursuit of truth, which is the goal of every man that claims to be called so.

I did no such thing as I think no such thing.

"Oh I didn't mean it!" But you're doing it, ****.

It's illuminating of the religious mindset however that you can come to the conclusion that because I do not consider myself to be a mindless serf to the arbitrary whims of a mysterious and unfathomable super-tyrant in the sky, then my life must be "sad and loveless".

Blah blah blah

Still waiting for the promised evidence.

I'm afraid you'll wait forever, buddy... You know what? You don't wanna believe? F()ck you. You were drowning and I landed you mys stick: but you seemed to like the stick more than the very chance to be saved. So you know what I'm gonna do? I'll gladly let you drown with that stick, because if I gave you my hand you would have dragged me down with you.

In the end I'm not held to save your soul. Jesus says "love your fellow as yourself": so I'm not held to love you more than I love myself. You don't wanna listen? You lose yourself and I'll save some more of my precious time.

[Nick Name]

The Nazis (or at least Hitler) did respect Jesus' words.

Men... I don't know wether to feel more disgusted or more afraid about this guy's words.

[squealpiggy]

Men... I don't know wether to feel more disgusted or more afraid about this guy's words.

Maybe it would be better to acquaint yourself with what Hitler actually said about Jesus and about religion instead of using him as the ultimate moustachioed bogeyman without really knowing why.

[squealpiggy]

Furiously what? Your manipulations are becoming more and more pathetic... I said that thousands miraculous healings have happened in Lourdes... That only a few have been recognised by the Church is not important, what's important is that those persons have been healed after going to Lourdes to be healed. There are lots of miracles and saints who are never and will never be officially recognised by the Church. I didn't backpedal at all on Lourdes.

So you're quite happy to claim thousands of miracles but then you have to assert that they don't count if someone actually bothers to COUNT how many? The catholic church has a vested interest in miracles at Lourdes and they have counted a miserable amount. The "thousands" or miracles didn't happen, as anybody who ever bothered to check can attest.

Nope: science deals with reason, physics and technology, religion deals with faith, ethics and spirituality. They actually are complementary and if separated, they both won't serve mankind correctly.

I'm glad you've accepted that religion is unreasonable.

Because it clearly tells that Science and Religion are compatible and complementary.

Science is all about finding out answers, religion is about telling you you're not entitled to them. They are mutually exclusive.

Have you ever killed somebody? Everyone that I personally knew who has been in the army and killed people, has troubles with his conscience. Some have even troubles sleeping. That's because they have the regret of interrupting someone else's life. That's what I call a spiritual matter.

No it isn't, it's a consequence of being a social animal and breaching a taboo.

It's basically everything that regards life. Enough said. If you start elucubrating over this life-death matter with your silly, sarcastic and useless speculation, I will not answer to you.

You claimed that "all living things" are connected by a force you call "love". I refute that. All living things that we know of are connected by shared biochemistry and shared ancestry. Not by magical forces but by measurable and observable physical reality.

The picture you posted about the Nazi camp was already enough to feed me up.

The picture I posted was of workers in a Soviet Gulag. No Nazis involved.

If you joke about these things, you're out of it. I'll just forget about you and get on with my life as I could be doing much more useful, funny or constructive things for my life right now.

It wasn't a joke. You said that the force of love connects all living things. I was illustrating the absurdity of this statement.

BEEP! BEEP! BEEP!... What's that? Oh, my personal hopeless case alarm! Let's see... Uhm, it looks like a red code: Battling atheist full of bitter anger, delusional personality, received catholic education... Probably early childish trauma and/or unresolved relationship with father...

In psychology this phenomenon is known as "projection". How does squealpiggy know so many things? thought Nick Name as he drooled slightly into his fries. Perhaps he listened in school...

Uhm I better stop here since I'm not a shrink. Nor a priest/professional soulsavior.
I'm sorry buddy... If i were you I'd just tell my dad I love him, but you seem to prefer arguing in the internet over your personal imaginary battle against religion. I'm more and more convinced there's nothing I can do to make you change idea over religion.

I'm glad you got over casting unwarranted aspersions about my parental relationships long enough to realise that your arguments are ineffective. My dad is not catholic, my mother is. My dad's religious background is anglican, but only as far as singing the songs. He thinks the actual theology is bunk.

Very nice... You add potato crisps and ketchup too? Or is that too heavy for your cholesterol level?

I'm too busy banging your mother to eat snacks and condiments.

The Nazis manipulated Christianity with propagandistic purposes:

And this is based on what exactly?

they elaborated an ideology called "Positive Christianity" in which they claim that Jesus was an Arian (I mean, come on... He was born in Middle East how could he be an Arian???) and murdered a lot of catholic priests too. How's that for a good catholic?

They murdered people who spoke out against the regime, regardless of their background. Singling out priests as special victims of the Nazis is utterly absurd when compared to the millions of ethnic Jews, communists, gypsies, handicapped and ****sexuals.

The theoretical basics of Nazism were also publically condemned by the Church with Pius XI's encyclic Mit brennender Sorge.

It was Pious XII you absolute cretin. And the pope really didn't so a lot about the Nazis when he was in a position to make a difference. In 1939 he could have made a brave stance against Nazism and if the millions of German catholics had answered his call and allowed their faith to overcome their nationalism then perhaps war could have been averted. But the pope remained silent... I mean sure, Hitler's greatest European ally was the country in which the Vatican is geographically situated, but I thought that the all powerful god would protect the church from mere tanks and bullets!



Man... I'm almost astonished to see how your hatred towards religion (wich probably comes form a personal delusion towards members of your catholic family) has blinded you and prevented you to speak naturally about the most simple matters. Your relentless desire to manipulate my theories is so strong that you end up damaging your own purpose to win this very argument (i.e. finding the truth). [/quote]

The Nazis were not atheists.

P.S. Several Nazi hierachists including Hitler also committed suicide, an action that no true believer would do.

This is the No True Scotsman fallacy. By this standard no "true believer" in catholicism would commit adultery, are you going to suggest that this has never happened?

Of course they did, and failed horribly.

Exactly what, about the nazis, was reasonable and logical? Enlighten me.

Mengele and Hitler were raised catholics (as I said previously, Hitler invented "Positive Christianity" for propagandistic reasons which he invented by himself and it's not at all recognised by the Church), but ended up going agaisnt the very principles of their own Faith. Just like... a-hem... Yourself.

Hitler and Mengele - Catholics. Not atheists. Catholics. Oh but no true catholic would ever experiment on people or send millions of them to their deaths without inventing some sort of rationalisation. For example by claiming that their victims are not really human and they they are vermin and... oh.

You see what happened? Hilter and Mengele - Catholics. Deal with it.

Sure... That was his only little mistake... Naughty naughty Hitler...

Sarcasm only works if you haven't shown yourself to be an atrocious imbecile.

I'm sorry... I'm afraid it's too late for the apologies and that picture you posted on the concentration camps was heavy, as it is also your twisted "philosphy" behind that. Oh and if you ever plan to delete it... I got one saved in my message with your quote into... So the people who will read see will acknowledge your rather depraved and uncoherent mentality.
Reality sucks at times, isn't it?

What are you babbling about now? The picture was posted as a comment on your claim that "all living things" are connected by "love". I can't think of a better demonstration of a lack of love within the human species than the Gulags. The punchline comes from the fact that you jumped to conclusions about the picture I posted, instantly declaring to be something that it is not and displaying your lack of knowledge about the world.

Yeah... The world is rough, buddy... I know, I know... Earth ain't no Paradise.

So are "all living things" connected by "love" or are you going to turn your back on that silly claim too?

Oh yes it does, baby. A soul that can be saved and live forever... And I've probably never been as glad about it as I am now.

Souls don't exist. I mean I'd be prepared to accept their existence if you can provide some evidence.

Actually scratch that - I'd be prepared to accept their existence is someone else can provide evidence. Your evidential standards are far too low.

Well, no one ever was able to bring scientific evidence of God and no one is interested into it. So it's definately not a big deal. The evidence is in all the miracles that happened in people's lives anyway. And there are millions who can testify.

So when you said there was "plenty evidence" were you lying or had you just not thought about it before?

Uhm... you already said that. Do I stil hear echoes of a self-victorious chant that shatters leaving place to a sad lament?

No.

[Nick Name]

Maybe it would be better to acquaint yourself with what Hitler actually said about Jesus and about religion instead of using him as the ultimate moustachioed bogeyman without really knowing why.

I'm not focusing on what he said, but on what he did. Words are futile and can be easily used to lie, or to manipulate (as what you are doing now).
Actions speak way louder than words, and hitler didn't act as somebody who respects the words of Jesus.
We are jidged for our actions, not our words. Talk is cheap, actions matter. Idiot.

[squealpiggy]

I'm not focusing on what he said, but on what he did. Words are futile and can be easily used to lie, or to manipulate (as what you are doing now).
Actions speak way louder than words, and hitler didn't act as somebody who respects the words of Jesus.
We are jidged for our actions, not our words. Talk is cheap, actions matter. Idiot.

I see. Well you claimed that Hitler was an atheist. Based on the evidence it is far more likely that he was not.

It's a shame when reality returns to bite you on the ass isn't it?

[Nick Name]

So you're quite happy to claim thousands of miracles but then you have to assert that they don't count if someone actually bothers to COUNT how many? The catholic church has a vested interest in miracles at Lourdes and they have counted a miserable amount. The "thousands" or miracles didn't happen, as anybody who ever bothered to check can attest.

The Church should have no interest in declaring miracles. It's not a matter of business, they don't get any money when miracle happens. Miracles happen PERIOD. Whether you believe it or not.

Science is all about finding out answers, religion is about telling you you're not entitled to them. They are mutually exclusive.

You're only entitled to answers regarding science, not to those regarding Faith. Simple as that.

No it isn't, it's a consequence of being a social animal and breaching a taboo.

If you prefer to say so...

You claimed that "all living things" are connected by a force you call "love". I refute that. All living things that we know of are connected by shared biochemistry and shared ancestry. Not by magical forces but by measurable and observable physical reality.

Say it as you prefer, just as above.

The picture I posted was of workers in a Soviet Gulag. No Nazis involved.

Same ****, what you said on the Nazis respecting Jesus' words is even worse.

It wasn't a joke. You said that the force of love connects all living things. I was illustrating the absurdity of this statement.

You were illustrating the absurdity of your own mentality: when animals kill other animals to survive and/or make their own species survive, it doesn't mean they hate their prey, it means they are carnivores and have to eat. That's how Natural balance is held and we are not overwhelmed by a single race of animals. Casually, the race that has caused more damage to the planet is ours.

In psychology this phenomenon is known as "projection". How does squealpiggy know so many things? thought Nick Name as he drooled slightly into his fries. Perhaps he listened in school...

I'm glad you got over casting unwarranted aspersions about my parental relationships long enough to realise that your arguments are ineffective. My dad is not catholic, my mother is. My dad's religious background is anglican, but only as far as singing the songs. He thinks the actual theology is bunk.

Just took a guess. My hopeless case alarm sometimes fails me... Like all human things. Who gives a f()ck, you're still my favorite ****face in this thread.

I'm too busy banging your mother to eat snacks and condiments.

Wow, a true bang-your-mother slur... Where did you learn that? Now you really showed me you can act like a true man... Tough guy are you.

And this is based on what exactly?

On what Nazis did for a living: tricking people into their own ideology to dominate the world. They even had a ministry of Propaganda.

They murdered people who spoke out against the regime, regardless of their background. Singling out priests as special victims of the Nazis is utterly absurd when compared to the millions of ethnic Jews, communists, gypsies, handicapped and ****sexuals.

Now that's very Catholic sin't it.

It was Pious XII you absolute cretin.

Ohhh... I wrote XI instead of XII... How could I? How??

And the pope really didn't so a lot about the Nazis when he was in a position to make a difference. In 1939 he could have made a brave stance against Nazism and if the millions of German catholics had answered his call and allowed their faith to overcome their nationalism then perhaps war could have been averted. But the pope remained silent... I mean sure, Hitler's greatest European ally was the country in which the Vatican is geographically situated, but I thought that the all powerful god would protect the church from mere tanks and bullets!

Too bad you weren't the Pope at the time... You sure would have prevented the Shoah all alone...

The Nazis were not atheists.

In fact, they were self-declaring catholics who actually practiced occultism... A well-known practice among standard catholics, isn't it?
You're still trying to recover from your silly statement on the Nazis respecting the words of Jesus... But the result is different from your purpose.

This is the No True Scotsman fallacy. By this standard no "true believer" in catholicism would commit adultery, are you going to suggest that this has never happened?

Of course not... Being a catholic doesn't make you a f()ckin saint. But a person who truely believes in God actually thinks again before killing oneself.
Anyway it's no big deal... It all depends on the single person. Not all the self-declared catholics, not even all the observants will go to Paradise. Just as not all Atheists will go to hell.

Exactly what, about the nazis, was reasonable and logical? Enlighten me.

The way they planned the mass extermination. That was very reasonable and logical. You see:
Jews own banks ---> Killing Jews=making a lot of money=succeeding in the war. That was perfectly logical. That's where evil logic brings you.
So yes, it was logical. Was it righteous or respectful of Jesus' words (as you claimed it to be)? No. But it still has a good logic to it, don't you reckon?
Just like your silly posts: it's always crap, but they still have a good logic to them. A pretty twisted logic I would add.

Hitler and Mengele - Catholics.

BEEP! Wrong. They might have declared themselves catholics (and lied), but in fact they were openly condemned by the Catholic Church itself.
It's like claiming I'm you're boxer and never going to the gym to train.

Sarcasm only works if you haven't shown yourself to be an atrocious imbecile.

Sarcasm is used when you have no irony left.

What are you babbling about now? The picture was posted as a comment on your claim that "all living things" are connected by "love". I can't think of a better demonstration of a lack of love within the human species than the Gulags. The punchline comes from the fact that you jumped to conclusions about the picture I posted, instantly declaring to be something that it is not and displaying your lack of knowledge about the world.

All living things are connected by love: not all the living creatures respect that connection. You sad, sad ****... Would you claim that being hosted in a Nazi camp was better than being in a Gulag? I wouldn't have liked neither of them. So you posting that pathetic crap to expose your sad theories shouldn't make you proud anyway.

So are "all living things" connected by "love" or are you going to turn your back on that silly claim too?

All living things are connected by love but there are individuals who don't respect that bond. But nonetheless you are still and always will be connected.
As for the example you made of animals killing each other... That's Nature, man. Animals hunt for a living since the dawn of time. I know, I know... Nature's cruel... This ain't no Paradise... Why does God allow suffering... Blah blah blah

Souls don't exist. I mean I'd be prepared to accept their existence if you can provide some evidence.

Souls exist and I don't need scientific evidence. :****you:

Actually scratch that - I'd be prepared to accept their existence is someone else can provide evidence. Your evidential standards are far too low.

So you'll probably die without believing. Too bad.
NEXT!

So when you said there was "plenty evidence" were you lying or had you just not thought about it before?

I was simply not talking about scientific evidence. It's just about the evidence that you're loved by someone else... You realise it through your coscience, not through an elkectron microscope. I was talking about that evidence. Then the argument came out of hand.

No.

Oh, yes indeed.

[squealpiggy]

I'm sorry... I would love to answer you, but you know, I'm afraid
I don't have enough time to even read all your redundant, hating, useless, desperate religion-bashing crap... My soul is eternal, but my life here on Earth is not.

God bless ya, ****.

[Nick Name]

I see. Well you claimed that Hitler was an atheist. Based on the evidence it is far more likely that he was not.

It's a shame when reality returns to bite you on the ass isn't it?

I don't give a f()ck, he's still obviously not held as a good example by the Church.
Just as the Spanish Inquisition (done by the Church itself) is not seen as a good practice by the Curch of today. People make mistakes, and put remedy to it.