Who thinks the FIRST clay-liston fight was fixed?

[smasher]

Well, let's put it this way. The old Louis that Marciano fought would have beaten Kevin McBride and a shot Ali on the same night. He was nowhere near his prime but he was a world class heavyweight and one of the ten best heavyweights in the world at the time.

Agreed, I'll give you that. Nowhere near his prime is what I was looking for....

[Yogi]

Savold had 37 losses when Louis defeated him so I would think Joe looked good against him. Louis had scored only 2 KO's in his 9 fights since returning to action so he had definitely slipped.

As for Joe stating he wanted to the win the title again, I'm sure he did, but his REASON for returning was due to back taxes owed, that's documented fact of which maybe you should take the time to have researched. If Louis had of been financially secure there is no way he would have returned to action after his initial retirement.

In any event we're splitting hairs. If you feel comfortable in believing that Marciano beat a good version of Joe I don't have a problem with that. My opinion is that he didn't.

Believe me I'm well aware of Louis' tax problems, as you can find mentions of that in basically any short one or two page bio that's written on him and I've read that a number of times in the past...including in books like Louis' own bio, and it's even mentioned in Skeehan's bio on Marciano. The stories on him giving his purses to navy & army relief (which caused a lot of tax problems), his losing his wife over his decision to return to the ring, Kennedy eventually writing off his debt, etc., etc., aren't exactly secrets now are they?

And you can't make the assumption that there is "no way" he'd return to the ring if he didn't have those problems, because you don't know...like other great fighters who were past their primes have been very prone to do, he may have very well came back regardless of if he owed money or not.

But whether he needed money or not, I still fail to see how that has any bearing on the quality of fighter he still was at that time, because like I said previous, a big reason EVERY fighter fights for financial gain and it doesn't make them any less of a fighter for doing so. But like the documented quotes & stories from/of Louis suggest, like him they also have their other reasons for stepping into the ring...prestigue, glory, etc.

And if the "only" reason Louis was still fighting was to clear up his tax problems, why didn't he continue on with a few more fights after Marciano, because he certainly wasn't in much better shape financially than he was when he decided to make a comeback?

Since quotes & stories suggest that Louis wanted very badly to make history by regaining the title again, I think the fact that he was knocked out of the title picture had much to do with him not continueing on than anything.

Listen, I said in my very first line of this recent discussion that Louis was obviously past his best, so you trying to make comparisions between that version of himself and the prime version is pretty irrelevant...But what I did take exception to was your comparisions between Louis and a few other former great Heavyweights at the end of their careers, because at that point in his career Louis was better (or MUCH better in some cases) than every single last one of them. And you making note of Savold's losses doesn't take way from the fact that Savold was highly ranked when facing Louis...In fact he was ranked right behind Louis in the rankings and that performance by Louis "gained him another title bout" according to the newspapers from back then...and he very likely would've gotten that shot had Walcott not defeated Charles in their third fight, because that was the agreement in place (the agreement was null & void because of Walcott's winning and cause of the rematch clause in effect, which was the practice back in the day when a champion lost his title).

Whether or not Marciano beat a "good version of Joe" isn't the point I've been trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that unlike those other past their prime Heavyweights you mentioned, Louis was still considered & proved to be one of the very best Heavyweights around when he stepped in there with Marciano, which is entirely backed up by all of the ratings, newspaper articles, and footage from that very time.

Ok, this is getting reduntant, so that's enough for me on the topic.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Yogi, do you think a prime Louis would beat Marciano?

[Yogi]

Yogi, do you think a prime Louis would beat Marciano?

I'd lean towards Louis winning a prime vs. prime matchup, yes, but it wouldn't be easy for him I don't think.

[smasher]

Savold was highly ranked when facing Louis...

Savold being highly ranked speaks volumes about how weak the division was at the time. With the exception of Lou Nova, Savold was beaten by most name fighters he fought including Baer, Conn, Musto, Muriello, Bivins, Baksi, Ray... not to mention lesser known fighters such as Bobo, Blunt, Hoosman, Fitzpatrick, Muscato, and Woodcock and these losses weren't in his formative years, they were in the latter half of his career. He never fought beyond his years either as he retired after the back to back Louis/Marciano losses.

My response to this thread initially was to a contributor who claimed Marciano had beaten a great fighter in Joe Louis. My response was that Louis was not great at the time Louis beat him and as stated before I stand behind that. I stated the same applied to Holmes-Ali, Donald-Holyfield and McBride-Tyson. I DID not say that these beaten fighters were equal to the 37 year old Louis, but intended to infer that each winning fighter should not claim to have beaten a great version. That is all....

[LondonRingRules]

========My response to this thread initially was to a contributor who claimed Marciano had beaten a great fighter in Joe Louis. My response was that Louis was not great at the time Louis beat him and as stated before I stand behind that. I stated the same applied to Holmes-Ali, Donald-Holyfield and McBride-Tyson. I DID not say that these beaten fighters were equal to the 37 year old Louis, but intended to infer that each winning fighter should not claim to have beaten a great version. That is all....===========

** That's good, because I was fixin' to be all over you. Louis was still a credible top 10 fighter when Rocky beat him. He would have beat the Spinks that beat Ali, and the McBride that beat Tyson. Donald is actually a decent fighter and that would have been a fairly even match up since Joe's power was considerably reduced.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

________
MAGIC FLIGHT LAUNCH BOX VAPORIZER

[Yogi]

can you believe that idiot WindupMerchant saying that liston threw the first fight? that's idiotic.

He's only believing what he reads, as he did PM me a single source a few days back. It was just conspiracy theory type of thing though, and his source did say something about Liston holding back, pulling his punches, or other stuff like that, which was suppose to be apparent when one watches that fight...

Well, I reserved full judgement until I did watch that fight again this morning (laziness, I guess), and with these eyes of mine, I do NOT see Liston holding back, pulling his punches, or whatever else...Even though he didn't have much sucess landing, he looked to be putting full force into his power shots and swinging to HURT in that fight, especially with that lead left hook of his (first 30 seconds of the fight saw Liston throwing huge left hooks that would've taken Ali's head off had they landed).

[butterfly1964]

He's only believing what he reads, as he did PM me a single source a few days back. It was just conspiracy theory type of thing though, and his source did say something about Liston holding back, pulling his punches, or other stuff like that, which was suppose to be apparent when one watches that fight...

Well, I reserved full judgement until I did watch that fight again this morning (laziness, I guess), and with these eyes of mine, I do NOT see Liston holding back, pulling his punches, or whatever else...Even though he didn't have much sucess landing, he looked to be putting full force into his power shots and swinging to HURT in that fight, especially with that lead left hook of his (first 30 seconds of the fight saw Liston throwing huge left hooks that would've taken Ali's head off had they landed).

exactly. any fool would see liston was trying his best. in fact he hurt clay in the third and fourth, and he was always only a couple inches from hitting cassius in pretty much every punch he threw.

[QueensburyRules]

****ing ridiculous comparisions!

Sure he was obviously past his best, but at the time Louis fought Marciano he was much better than those other fighter you mentioned in your examples...

Why the hell shouldn't Marciano get credit for defeating a guy who was ranked higher than him (#2 & #3 respectively in Ring Magazine)?

Why the hell shouldn't Marciano get credit for defeating a guy who was the betting favourite to win the fight?

Why the hell shouldn't Marciano get credit nowadays for the win, when at that time he recieved big credit for defeating Louis (including post-fight New York articles about him "climbing Mount Olympus", as well as parades in his honour)?

Why the hell shouldn't Marciano get credit when it was obvious by Louis' impressive & dominating performance against Savold just a few months that he still had plenty to offer against the top Heavyweights of that time (Louis beat the **** out of Savold in the fight, bloodied him up quite badly and finished with a one-punch left hook KO)...Louis was also VERY active leading up to the fight with Marciano, which included wins against top ten ranked contenders and recent contenders alike?

Like I said in the opening, Louis was obviously past his best by that point in his career, but it's completely & entirely wrong to take a 2005 view of that fight without going back into that time and review what was going on...

To me, no matter who it was, a fighter who defeats the higher ranked #2 contender (and Joe was #1 just before that, but Charles took over that position when he lost the title to Walcott...an agreement was in place that stipulated had Charles defeated Walcott in that fight, Louis was getting the next title shot), a fighter favoured over him, a fighter who looked very good in a then recent bout (and Joe didn't look all that bad for the first five or six rounds vs, Marciano...pretty even fight at that point), etc., is going to recive a decent amount of credit from me...especially when that fighter recieved his share of credit right after the fight was actually fought.

You can look all this stuff up for yourself if you want (rankings, fight footage of Joe's vs. Savold & Marciano, newspaper articles pre & post fight, etc., etc.).

- -Heh, heh, Yogi an easy going sort got riled up enough to read the riot act.

Notice that BKM used to be Yaman and there looks to be 2 butterfly's in this era.

Fact Clay considered easy meat back in the day after Jones and Cooper, so Sonny training studiously for a four rounder before chasing his daily whiskey with women.

All the money was 1-2 rd KO of the Lip but for the best laid plans of mice and men.

2nd fight a French farce.