Why Dempsey Louis and Marchiano were Heavyweghts not Cruiserweights

[billeau2]

No I don't think so. I'm just layin out an opinion and what I consider the obvious truth. Nothing further is really required.

You'll either swallow it, or not

Your idiocy regarding this point in particular has no bounds:

Ray Corso explained what the Heavyweight division is in boxing....Whether you agree with any particular point of view when a professional trainer clarifies a matter of rules, it should at least be acknowledged. So in the spirit of understanding lets look again at that definition for THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION IN PROFESSIONAL PRIZE FIGHTING.

The heavyweight division is essentially an open division. That means that anyone may fight in this division. Now....there may well be a bottom weight limit that is agreed upon....Obviously we can't have flyweights fight butterbeans! But there are ample examples of middleweights on up fighting at this weight limit....Bob Fitzimmins is one such example.

WHY is the heavyweight division open? and BTW this can be in other sports. Martial Arts Karate tourneys used to have the middle weight winner square off against the heavyweight for the big trophy.

It is open because as a human being gets bigger, as long as the biggness is a natural consequence (big bones, large hands, shoulder width, etc) it matters less and less the bigger we get. Using Bob Fitz again as an example, the guy was 168 but had a shoulder width, huge wrists such that he was a big man....His calfs were small as if that matters.

Elroy, why is it that a human being with a body weight percentage of less than 5% cannot run a marathon as well as a smaller man built as a runner? i mean proportionally the bigger man is not at any disadvantage, he may have more weight but he has more muscles right?

The reason why a runner is built a certain way compared to a weight lifter is because some properties of the human physique cannot be described based on our weight. A runner has to be built a certain way, while a horse jockey can be a butterball, as long as he/she has a certain weight.

To be a heavyweight fighter you have to be built a certain way, it is not dependent on your weight because a punch does not automatically get stronger with more weight. Most people will statistically weigh a certain amount to be built as a heavyweight....Hence it is true that most heavies will weigh at least 200 pounds. But there are even people that fall outside of this limit, people like Bob fitzzimins. And before one says "well that is just one exception" think about how many people are boxers, heavier boxers, professional boxers, known about and you will realize that even one example of this in Bob Fitzimmins is NOT such an exception.

As we head towards the cruiserweights we get more and more examples of heavyweights who weigh less but are succesful. David Haye, Chris Bird are examples....and one of these guys is a puncher. All haye did was to put on muscle, he does not walk around at the same weight as a guy like Lewis.

Weight is one factor in an open division called the heavyweight division. And despite people wanting a super heavy division, wht you would get is a bunch of butterbeans. One challenge faced by fighters including heavyweights, is to fight for twelve rounds....with vigor!

[Welsh Jon]

It really annoys me when idiots say Joe Louis would be too small to fight today's Super heavies. Seems to me today's Super heavies are too slow to fight Joe Louis.

And can you imagine Wlad v Rocky? Only fools would think that an easy nights work for Wlad. It would be so difficult for Wlad to fight a guy that crafty, that size, fighting out of a crouched stance. I do think Wlad would prevail in the end, but he would look like **** doing it.

[Elroy1]

Your idiocy regarding this point in particular has no bounds:

Ray Corso explained what the Heavyweight division is in boxing....Whether you agree with any particular point of view when a professional trainer clarifies a matter of rules, it should at least be acknowledged. So in the spirit of understanding lets look again at that definition for THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION IN PROFESSIONAL PRIZE FIGHTING.

The heavyweight division is essentially an open division. That means that anyone may fight in this division. Now....there may well be a bottom weight limit that is agreed upon....Obviously we can't have flyweights fight butterbeans! But there are ample examples of middleweights on up fighting at this weight limit....Bob Fitzimmins is one such example.

WHY is the heavyweight division open? and BTW this can be in other sports. Martial Arts Karate tourneys used to have the middle weight winner square off against the heavyweight for the big trophy.

It is open because as a human being gets bigger, as long as the biggness is a natural consequence (big bones, large hands, shoulder width, etc) it matters less and less the bigger we get. Using Bob Fitz again as an example, the guy was 168 but had a shoulder width, huge wrists such that he was a big man....His calfs were small as if that matters.

Elroy, why is it that a human being with a body weight percentage of less than 5% cannot run a marathon as well as a smaller man built as a runner? i mean proportionally the bigger man is not at any disadvantage, he may have more weight but he has more muscles right?

The reason why a runner is built a certain way compared to a weight lifter is because some properties of the human physique cannot be described based on our weight. A runner has to be built a certain way, while a horse jockey can be a butterball, as long as he/she has a certain weight.

To be a heavyweight fighter you have to be built a certain way, it is not dependent on your weight because a punch does not automatically get stronger with more weight. Most people will statistically weigh a certain amount to be built as a heavyweight....Hence it is true that most heavies will weigh at least 200 pounds. But there are even people that fall outside of this limit, people like Bob fitzzimins. And before one says "well that is just one exception" think about how many people are boxers, heavier boxers, professional boxers, known about and you will realize that even one example of this in Bob Fitzimmins is NOT such an exception.

As we head towards the cruiserweights we get more and more examples of heavyweights who weigh less but are succesful. David Haye, Chris Bird are examples....and one of these guys is a puncher. All haye did was to put on muscle, he does not walk around at the same weight as a guy like Lewis.

Weight is one factor in an open division called the heavyweight division. And despite people wanting a super heavy division, wht you would get is a bunch of butterbeans. One challenge faced by fighters including heavyweights, is to fight for twelve rounds....with vigor!

Assuming Ray Corso really IS a professional trainer, I would never question his coaching methods etc. But his definition of a "HW" as you continue to describe is, and always was, a cheap cop out way for him to skirt the issue that guys like Dempsey and Marciano are not HW's today.

The premise being that a fighter less than 200 today or less than 190 a few decades ago, could still compete in the "open" class. Yes there are instances where that has been allowed. It isn't a hard and fast rule, it's boxing, you can make an agreement to fight at ANY weight within reason. But it is generally not within the rules of boxing for boxers in the sub 200 class to fight opponents in the 200+ class and vice verse.

The implication being that what? Dempsey and Marciano compete against quality natural 225-235lbers on average as today?

Dempsey or Marciano would never WANT to compete in the HW division today.

Nobody would want to SEE Dempsey or Marciano compete in the HW divison today.

Most importantly, nobody would want to see a modern HW boxer pad his record by knocking guys like Dempsey or Marciano today and they CERTAINLY would not pay money for it!

You made lots of other idiotic comments which I'll address if you come back but right now I'll answer to just one other.

You mentioned Bob Fitzsimmonds, a great champion of his time. In short, Bob was top heavy but even considering his top it was MASSIVELY smaller than even the 168lb fighters of TODAY! (You fool! ) He punched well above his weight for his day but to consider him a "HW" today is just simply outrageous. There is not a top 50 HW today who would fail to knock him straight out no matter how much I respect the guy!

On the Super division, I'm not a real believer in that just yet anyway but I
think an eventual adjustment will be inevitable eventually though. PPl get bigger that's inexorable.

Obviously to entertain the opinions of a madman like Ray you must be old school yourself which is cool but I fail to see how claiming these 2 guys belong in the same weight class as a HW today does you or them any justice.

[BKM-2010]

People forget that Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey did have the frame of modern heavyweights.

Jack Dempsey was 6'1 tall with a 77 inch reach, very long arms for his size.

Joe Louis was a good height of 6'2, 76 inch reach which again is solid for a heavyweight.

Jack Johnson was 6'1, 74" reach with a very robust frame that could have easily handled another 15 to 20 pounds of solid mass. And he was extremely physically strong for his size too.

These men had big skulls too and they were shredded with very low bodyfat for heavyweights. I believe reach and height is more important in Boxing than just weight, but they compensated for that. And I think that they would have no trouble packing on more mass to compete with modern big guys/

Also the Klitschko brothers do not represent this generation of heavyweights, they are anomalies even now. I would say that the 90s actually consistently had bigger top heavyweights in the devision than in the 00s and now.

Dempsey, Louis, Johnson, Liston, Jeffries were true heavyweights.

For Marciano, Walcott and Patterson I can't vouch for them in these comparisons. They were naturally smaller guys with smaller frames and shorter arms which was a product of that particular time.

I just felt like ranting about this lol.

[Elroy1]

People forget that Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey did have the frame of modern heavyweights.

Jack Dempsey was 6'1 tall with a 77 inch reach, very long arms for his size.

Joe Louis was a good height of 6'2, 76 inch reach which again is solid for a heavyweight.

Jack Johnson was 6'1, 74" reach with a very robust frame that could have easily handled another 15 to 20 pounds of solid mass. And he was extremely physically strong for his size too.

These men had big skulls too and they were shredded with very low bodyfat for heavyweights. I believe reach and height is more important in Boxing than just weight, but they compensated for that. And I think that they would have no trouble packing on more mass to compete with modern big guys/

Also the Klitschko brothers do not represent this generation of heavyweights, they are anomalies even now. I would say that the 90s actually consistently had bigger top heavyweights in the devision than in the 00s and now.

Dempsey, Louis, Johnson, Liston, Jeffries were true heavyweights.

For Marciano, Walcott and Patterson I can't vouch for them in these comparisons. They were naturally smaller guys with smaller frames and shorter arms which was a product of that particular time.

I just felt like ranting about this lol.

Somewhat agree.

Jeffries and Johnson were big strong guys but I don't think they are really comparable to modern fighters in other ways than weight myself.

The 6'1+ guys you mentioned are of course as tall as a lot of HW's. Sonny Liston was of course a natural HW, pretty much the first guy I would call a natural HW of the kind of skill and athleticness one would expect from a modern fighter.

Where I have to disagree with you is Dempsey in total and partially Louis. Louis with modern diet and training to maximise his muscle and even steroids if you will could have easily filled out to the size of a modern HW as other guys his natural size have done in recent times. As he was though he fell short of this criteria. He was over the limit when he chubbed up when he was much older but that isn't really the same as a modern CW like Adamek or Cunningham who built there way into the division.

Dempsey is flat out wrong. I can't be assed putting up the photographs but if you check out a photograph of Dempsey and then a photo of the average sized HW today (being on average 6'3" and 227lbs and last check I did) say, Bryant Jennings for example who is a bit less than that and considered a "small" HW today... It is here so strikingly apparent the difference that Dempsey is rendered completely obsolete. What's more, this Jennings is far leaner and harder at his weight than Dempsey EVER was.

Don't take my word, see for yourself.

[billeau2]

Assuming Ray Corso really IS a professional trainer, I would never question his coaching methods etc. But his definition of a "HW" as you continue to describe is, and always was, a cheap cop out way for him to skirt the issue that guys like Dempsey and Marciano are not HW's today.

The premise being that a fighter less than 200 today or less than 190 a few decades ago, could still compete in the "open" class. Yes there are instances where that has been allowed. It isn't a hard and fast rule, it's boxing, you can make an agreement to fight at ANY weight within reason. But it is generally not within the rules of boxing for boxers in the sub 200 class to fight opponents in the 200+ class and vice verse.

The implication being that what? Dempsey and Marciano compete against quality natural 225-235lbers on average as today?

Dempsey or Marciano would never WANT to compete in the HW division today.

Nobody would want to SEE Dempsey or Marciano compete in the HW divison today.

Most importantly, nobody would want to see a modern HW boxer pad his record by knocking guys like Dempsey or Marciano today and they CERTAINLY would not pay money for it!

You made lots of other idiotic comments which I'll address if you come back but right now I'll answer to just one other.

You mentioned Bob Fitzsimmonds, a great champion of his time. In short, Bob was top heavy but even considering his top it was MASSIVELY smaller than even the 168lb fighters of TODAY! (You fool! ) He punched well above his weight for his day but to consider him a "HW" today is just simply outrageous. There is not a top 50 HW today who would fail to knock him straight out no matter how much I respect the guy!

On the Super division, I'm not a real believer in that just yet anyway but I
think an eventual adjustment will be inevitable eventually though. PPl get bigger that's inexorable.

Obviously to entertain the opinions of a madman like Ray you must be old school yourself which is cool but I fail to see how claiming these 2 guys belong in the same weight class as a HW today does you or them any justice.

You are blind to assumptions you make....How would you know what Rocky Or Dempsey would want? You don't use any logical thought preferring not to address points raised....You seem to think that if you repeat your assertions they will become true.

[Elroy1]

You are blind to assumptions you make....How would you know what Rocky Or Dempsey would want? You don't use any logical thought preferring not to address points raised....You seem to think that if you repeat your assertions they will become true.

Not entirely true, I'll try a different angle then and sympathise with you a bit.

Ok, so let's dispense with all of the labels, MW, SMW, LHW, CW, HW and the imaginary SHW as well and just look at the weights of the fighters. Marciano and Dempsey were less than 200lbs, MArciano approaching the LHW limit even as they were.

I will grant you one thing, the training that those 2 did for their craft was unscientific (sports physiology had not been applied yet to boxing) and resulted in them catablolising much of their muscle away and also leaving them with a small amount of chub and fluid (small, I know they were mostly ripped, esp Rocky). Were they to enjoy PED's, modern dietary methods and interval, periodised training like modern boxers and muscle maintenance work then I agree, Dempsey and Marciano could have come in much heavier.

If they didn't clear the limit still for whatever reason it is not inconceivable that they could not have fought todays HW's at HW anyway! Granted! Roy Jones did it after all and won title right!

But given how they were, 185lbs is still 185lbs and 225lbs is still 225lbs no matter what you call the weight range. That's a weight differential of 40lbs for Rocky to surmount to fight the AVERAGE sized HW today.

Now weight is not everything of course, but we are not talking about low quality boxers like Rocky fought at that weight are we. We are talking about the top boxers at that weight, the quality of which didn't exist in his day. And what's more his competitive against a population of them based on this weight difference drops the more we consider he'd have to face. Roy Jones quickly dropped out of the HW division remember.

Now what your implying is actually disrespectful to the CW division which did not exist in Rocky's day. Rocky SHOULD be rightfully compared to the modern CW division because these guys are approximately his weight, why should Rocky be promoted above them in status simply because the CW limit was introduced where previously they would have been HW's? You see it's your arguments flipped around, works equally.

We can solve this mutually for both of us to be satisfied!

I would claim and hope you'd agree, that Rocky's sub 200 fights were what we TODAY consider CW fights. And those occasions where he fought opponents above 200lbs, he was a HW, regardless of the quality.

Can we agree on that then?

Kind of like how Holyfield and Haye for example were CW's AND HW's. They have a combined record. So do Dempsey and Rocky when viewed by modern standards.

That's how I see it.

And please note, this is actually flattering to Rocky and Dempsey somewhat because when comparing them to the modern Cruiser division, their competitiveness can be viewed in MUCH greater esteem wouldn't you say? You can see the real quality in Rocky and Dempsey against those guys today!

Problem is for them as modern HW's, is that their styles today are suitable for only large heavy set guys with massive punches and cast iron jaws. You do not find a single 215lb even boxer who employs that kind of style today. Those guys are all either ultra slick and fast like Haye, Cunningham etc or were great cagey counterpunchers. Not "face firsters". Again, think about Roy's challenge to the HW. He did not do it by slugging it out!

Friends now?

[Elroy1]

If this is going to continue I'm actually interested and I forget how many 200+ opponents each of Dempsey and MArciano actually fought. Does anybody know this off hand?

I have no problem asserting Rocky and Dempsey modern defined HW status for these fights. Even if they themselves were sub 200 (which implies they were good).

Fair is fair.

[billeau2]

Not entirely true, I'll try a different angle then and sympathise with you a bit.

Ok, so let's dispense with all of the labels, MW, SMW, LHW, CW, HW and the imaginary SHW as well and just look at the weights of the fighters. Marciano and Dempsey were less than 200lbs, MArciano approaching the LHW limit even as they were.

I will grant you one thing, the training that those 2 did for their craft was unscientific (sports physiology had not been applied yet to boxing) and resulted in them catablolising much of their muscle away and also leaving them with a small amount of chub and fluid (small, I know they were mostly ripped, esp Rocky). Were they to enjoy PED's, modern dietary methods and interval, periodised training like modern boxers and muscle maintenance work then I agree, Dempsey and Marciano could have come in much heavier.

If they didn't clear the limit still for whatever reason it is not inconceivable that they could not have fought todays HW's at HW anyway! Granted! Roy Jones did it after all and won title right!

But given how they were, 185lbs is still 185lbs and 225lbs is still 225lbs no matter what you call the weight range. That's a weight differential of 40lbs for Rocky to surmount to fight the AVERAGE sized HW today.

Now weight is not everything of course, but we are not talking about low quality boxers like Rocky fought at that weight are we. We are talking about the top boxers at that weight, the quality of which didn't exist in his day. And what's more his competitive against a population of them based on this weight difference drops the more we consider he'd have to face. Roy Jones quickly dropped out of the HW division remember.

Now what your implying is actually disrespectful to the CW division which did not exist in Rocky's day. Rocky SHOULD be rightfully compared to the modern CW division because these guys are approximately his weight, why should Rocky be promoted above them in status simply because the CW limit was introduced where previously they would have been HW's? You see it's your arguments flipped around, works equally.

We can solve this mutually for both of us to be satisfied!

I would claim and hope you'd agree, that Rocky's sub 200 fights were what we TODAY consider CW fights. And those occasions where he fought opponents above 200lbs, he was a HW, regardless of the quality.

Can we agree on that then?

Kind of like how Holyfield and Haye for example were CW's AND HW's. They have a combined record. So do Dempsey and Rocky when viewed by modern standards.

That's how I see it.

And please note, this is actually flattering to Rocky and Dempsey somewhat because when comparing them to the modern Cruiser division, their competitiveness can be viewed in MUCH greater esteem wouldn't you say? You can see the real quality in Rocky and Dempsey against those guys today!

Problem is for them as modern HW's, is that their styles today are suitable for only large heavy set guys with massive punches and cast iron jaws. You do not find a single 215lb even boxer who employs that kind of style today. Those guys are all either ultra slick and fast like Haye, Cunningham etc or were great cagey counterpunchers. Not "face firsters". Again, think about Roy's challenge to the HW. He did not do it by slugging it out!

Friends now?

Where do you get these notions about modern athletic progress? People understood basic human physiology in the Roman Times Elroy! many progressive scientific nutritionists believe that the diet human beings had in the 50's was superior to any nutritional advantages we have today....Yes when pastuer discovered bacteria, and when immunology was developed we saw great progress but, not on the fringes of human achievement!

Football and Baseball have better athletes primarily because these endevours have become financially beneficial. But boxing does not have this relattionship to athletics Elroy. People have had methods of fighting in an organized fashion for many many moons. Look at German or Spanish fencing treatises...or Japanese Ju Jutsu Koryu scrolls. Steriods may be a benefit but they are most certainly not the harbinger of a new breed of fighting men that dwarf the old breed.

If you want t point of agreement then consider that with more access to meat and dairy, men like Marciano, Dempsey, Louis and Braddock might have grown bigger in stature. With public assistance today most kids, poor or otherwise do have access to protein sources and these men grew up poor and were probably deprived of a diet rich in animal proteins. That is possible....but one wonders how much that would effect their efficacy in the ring. These men certainly trained in a manner where they could fight for a long time....and outlast any heavy weight we see today on that account.

Being ripped helps Elroy, i.e....Butter Bean has less endurance than Klitschko...but Klitschko would never last fifteen rounds with a champion from the past of the calibre of Dempsey or Marciano. EVEN if one believes Klitschko is so strong that he would KO any one of these guys, I doubt IF the fight lasted he could last and keep pace for a full fight into the championship rounds. So that so called conditioning and nutritional advantage does not hild up. I base my conclusion on watching big guys peter out as the fight progresses, they also throw less punches in general and move a lot less. So I don't see how they are so well conditioned compared to fighters in the past.

[phallus]

It really annoys me when idiots say Joe Louis would be too small to fight today's Super heavies. Seems to me today's Super heavies are too slow to fight Joe Louis.

And can you imagine Wlad v Rocky? Only fools would think that an easy nights work for Wlad. It would be so difficult for Wlad to fight a guy that crafty, that size, fighting out of a crouched stance. I do think Wlad would prevail in the end, but he would look like **** doing it.

if rocky gets on the inside in a fight with wlad, he'd break his ribs with body punches. Marciano is so short compared to wlad I can see him slipping in under the jab and going to work on that long body. it only took one right hand from Marciano to cave in Walcott's face and knock him out cold