P4P Who Beats Who

[The Old LefHook]

"It starts around 19 and goes to maybe 25". Over 147lbs you couldn't be more wrong! In boxing your learning between 19 and 25 and applying your knowledge after that. In Robinsons case his biggest's fights came after 25 years old.

" after at least 8 years in the previous division, is not his prime division. The same goes for Robinson"

..8 years isn't anywhere near his halfway mark! He fought for 25 years!

You need to study up on Robinsons career your assuming way to much!

Ray

The physical peak is just what it implies. It has nothing to do with learning curves. It has to do with your cells. A person with one eye can see from the existing welterweight footage that Robinson was much faster as a welterweight than he was when he took the middleweight title from LaMotta.

And it does not matter at all what Robinson's "halfway mark" was. That is a red herring. Everyone knows he fought on at least seven years too long. You need to study up on his career! He was pretty well shot after the early 1958 victory over Basilio, as his record clearly indicates. The likes of Paul Pender, Terry Downes and Denny Moyer could not have shined his shoes earlier, and they were the best of the throng that began beating on him!

After at least 89 amateur fights and 80 professional fights as a welterweight, at twenty-seven years of age, Robinson was already past the peak physical years. His biggest fights may have lain ahead, but he was not at his physical or his boxing peak for them. He had all the learning he needed and was still close to physical peak 1944-1948. After the peak years of course his greatness carried him a long way and on to great things even while he was growing more shot.

As Robinson won the middleweight title from Lamotta he was already leaving both his physical peak and his boxing peak behind. He had a lot of skills, so the deficit did not matter in the win/loss column. After the loss to Maxim in '52, the slope of the slide steepened dramatically.

Now if the man was sliding away steeply by mid '52 and won the title in Feb. of '51, his prime was not in the middleweights.

[Ray Corso]

I'm not going to change your mind and that's ok, you don't know what your talking about when it comes to great fighters.
Robinson is the extreme not the norm, he defeated the best from the early 40's through the 50's into the 60's!
Pender, Basilio, Moyer were all terrific fighters they defeated him but he came back to beat them. Could they get him a few years early I don't know and neither do you!

I can tell you this he stops Floyd Mayweather and does it quickly if he wants to. Their are no fighters today who come close to him in the 40' 50's or 60's!

The physical side is less than 40% once your experience level has grown. Whatever Robinson lost physically is more than made up by from his mind!

Yes he was a great physical fighter but he won with his mind too.

This BS about Robinson just gets so old, theres no one that comes close to his talent, I've been involved with teaching boxing for over 50 years! I've worked some great talents and against some too. I had Leonard in my gym when he tirned pro, Tyson as a kid and the potential was obvious Saad came to me twice for title fight preps. Marlon Starling, Ty Booze Leo Cruz I can go on & on all champions NONE of them come close. My mentors were Willie Pep & Gaspar Ortega two of the sports greats competitors and Pep thought Sugar was the BEST! Ortega told me he didn't think he matched up well but it would be an HONOR to meet Robinson.

Go on with your time table your welcomed to your opinion but it isn't based on the facts!

see ya

[Bundana]

I'm not going to change your mind and that's ok, you don't know what your talking about when it comes to great fighters.
Robinson is the extreme not the norm, he defeated the best from the early 40's through the 50's into the 60's!
Pender, Basilio, Moyer were all terrific fighters they defeated him but he came back to beat them. Could they get him a few years early I don't know and neither do you!

I can tell you this he stops Floyd Mayweather and does it quickly if he wants to. Their are no fighters today who come close to him in the 40' 50's or 60's!

The physical side is less than 40% once your experience level has grown. Whatever Robinson lost physically is more than made up by from his mind!

Yes he was a great physical fighter but he won with his mind too.

This BS about Robinson just gets so old, theres no one that comes close to his talent, I've been involved with teaching boxing for over 50 years! I've worked some great talents and against some too. I had Leonard in my gym when he tirned pro, Tyson as a kid and the potential was obvious Saad came to me twice for title fight preps. Marlon Starling, Ty Booze Leo Cruz I can go on & on all champions NONE of them come close. My mentors were Willie Pep & Gaspar Ortega two of the sports greats competitors and Pep thought Sugar was the BEST! Ortega told me he didn't think he matched up well but it would be an HONOR to meet Robinson.

Go on with your time table your welcomed to your opinion but it isn't based on the facts!

see ya

Look, we all know Robinson was the GOAT! I don't see LefHook arguing against that. All he's saying is, that as great as he was as a middleweight... he may actually have been even better and peaked at welter. Which, by the way, is the opinion held by most historians... but then again, I suppose you know best, and those who don't agree with you, have no idea what they are talking about, right?

And what has how fast he would stop Mayweather got to do with when he was in his prime?

[The Old LefHook]

I'm not going to change your mind and that's ok, you don't know what your talking about when it comes to great fighters.
Robinson is the extreme not the norm, he defeated the best from the early 40's through the 50's into the 60's!
Pender, Basilio, Moyer were all terrific fighters they defeated him but he came back to beat them. Could they get him a few years early I don't know and neither do you!

I can tell you this he stops Floyd Mayweather and does it quickly if he wants to. Their are no fighters today who come close to him in the 40' 50's or 60's!

The physical side is less than 40% once your experience level has grown. Whatever Robinson lost physically is more than made up by from his mind!

Yes he was a great physical fighter but he won with his mind too.

This BS about Robinson just gets so old, theres no one that comes close to his talent, I've been involved with teaching boxing for over 50 years! I've worked some great talents and against some too. I had Leonard in my gym when he tirned pro, Tyson as a kid and the potential was obvious Saad came to me twice for title fight preps. Marlon Starling, Ty Booze Leo Cruz I can go on & on all champions NONE of them come close. My mentors were Willie Pep & Gaspar Ortega two of the sports greats competitors and Pep thought Sugar was the BEST! Ortega told me he didn't think he matched up well but it would be an HONOR to meet Robinson.

Go on with your time table your welcomed to your opinion but it isn't based on the facts!

see ya

I guess someone told you Robinson wasn't the best. I don't know who it was, but give 'em hell, sport.

I'm not going to change your mind and that's ok,

Now that much was just fine, and where you should have stopped.

you don't know what your talking about when it comes to great fighters.

But this is not just fine. Some people don't even know why they are standing in the sunshine. You would be too easy.

[Anthony342]

Of course you will take everything into account to as to why someone would beat someone else. But that is strictly what you are judging in the end --who-beats-who, not who was the better champion or who lasted a long time at top level or who had the greater historical impact, etc., etc., etc.

Actually, a lot of people do go by who was better in their era/more dominant, with head to head playing a small role as well and longevity.

[Anthony342]

Why is there hardly any footage of Robinson at welterweight?

[Ray Corso]

He was camera shy when he was a kid?

[Anthony342]

I guess Harry Greb was REALLY camera shy then.

[The Old LefHook]

Why is there hardly any footage of Robinson at welterweight?

Very good question. It was still pretty early and heavyweights got most of the film attention. Perhaps Robinson's hardline negotiation tactics discouraged studios on a few deals.

Robinson fought his first twenty fights at or around 135. He had almost 60 fights before he was the heavier man in a contest--145-143. After six years as a pro he became welterweight champ. He fought a lot of non title fights where weight was not an issue both before that and after acquiring the title. Those fights are over-the-weight welterweight bouts, not middleweight fights. Whenever he had to, he made the welterweight limit right into 1950 against Fusari.

His very next fight was advertised as an eliminator for the middleweight title. He continued to average about 155 for many fights, but hit 150, too. He would have been entirely comfortable making a junior welterweight limit. Let Monzon or even Hagler try that. They were ribcages at 160, Robinson always had flesh on him at 155.

Eight years and 90 fights is plenty of experience. I will take Robinson as a welterweight, during the period from Bell to Gavilan II, as my specimen.

* * * * *

Nothing cements a sentimental favorite like hardship. We love to see a man come back.

Robinson became a sensation fast. Legends grow slower. When the world witnessed only an act of God deny him the light heavyweight title against Maxim, the needle of his legend moved right. Though a loss, it was an immortal highlight of boxing. The attempt was heroic. A guy who started as a lightweight could be denied the light heavyweight title only by God against a guy who could comfortably stand his ground with Jersey Joe Walcott.

After a three year retirement the legend returned. The return of a hero is cause for celebration. There were victories, yes, but also the disputed one over Castellani, and then the out-hustling by Jones. We love a hero who can climb out of the mud. Robinson climbed out of the mud for some of his most notable victories, though he never did face either of those two again. He always had bigger fish to fry and more money to make. He was not about giving each man their just due. He had himself to take care of and making sure he got his just due. He knew the stepping stones from the title holders.

Those few surviving film fragments of Robinson as a welterweight are precious. They are not unlike in kind the Archimedes Palimpsest. They prove something that we could not otherwise argue with certainty, even though we know it is always true--Robinson was faster and more active as a welterweight. He was more wont (not a misspelling) and more able to overwhelm opponents. He was a couple of weeks shy of thirty when he won the middleweight title. Thirty is no one's prime.

After Maxim and the comeback he had definitely lost a step, similar to Ali after his layoff. Because his medicine bag of skill was deep and his natural athleticism sublime, he was able to pull off some of his greatest victories in this period. Ali did the same thing, but nobody ever claimed he was as fast or as active

Because television had now bloomed, the sugar legend could be piped into millions of homes, just as he was rapidly going downhill. Television commentators were sure to remind the viewers of the diminshed abilities they were witnessing, stacking on the legend. These fights are the fights emblazoned on the public's memory and the ones they most judge him by.

For P4P matches, I want a fighter at his very best, i.e. with enough experience yet close enough to prime body years to still retain as much of youthful reflexes as possible. The intersection point of two curves.

Mr. Corso feels this is later than I do for Robinson. I would say that is our only real difference. I believe that if he understood or accepted that all dimensions of the fighter move up or down with him, he would by logic be forced to accept that a Robinson 3-4 inches taller than his typical opponent is superior to a setup where he is only 1-2 inches taller, for instance.

If I have Robinson fighting Bob Foster at Light heavyweight in a mythical matchup, is Robinson still going to be 5'11"? Of course not. That is insane. Robinson was 5'11" as a prime welterweight. He was taller than most of his opponents, but so was Foster. My specimen will come in at near the height of Foster, at maybe 6'2".

Is Klitchko in mythical bouts at bantam weight going to be a bantam weight of average height? That's insane. All dimenions grow or shrink in these adjustments.

At his true weight class he was extremely rangey. That is where I want him, not where he was sort of rangey. If he faces another guy in a mythical matchup who was extremely rangey for his prime weight class, then they both will be extremely rangey. Simple. And also the only reasonable way to conduct these mental exercises.