Sonny Liston vs. Joe Frazier

[GJC]

frazier quit against ali the third time around and convinced eddie futch to come up with a **** and bull story about him wanting to continue?

Frazier never forgave Futch for pulling him out in Manilla and is still bitter about it.
As for Frazier running from Foreman he kept coming forward actually, not bright but not cowardly either.

[JAB5239]

From the book "Going the distance" by Ken Norton:

"Good sparring partners are heavily in demand in boxing, and Eddie convinced Yank to give me a chance to be a sparring partner for Frazier, who was then undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. Frazier would get a good sparring partner for his up and coming fight with Jimmy Ellis, and I would be able to learn and improve on my technique by one of the hardest hitters of all time, "Smokin" Joe Frazier. It was a win-win situation and the money wasn't bad, either. Frazier paid me a handsome 500$ a week to spar with him, but let me tell you, I earned every cent for some of the shots I took.

Going to Frazier's camp was my introduction to the big time. Joe was then, as he is now, a very fun-loving guy, but he trained in the gym very hard. Once the gloves were on, he didn't mess around. You made no mistakes with Joe or you lost your head. At the very least, he could break your ribs.

Frazier beat me the first time I climbed into the ring with him. I made the unfortunate mistake of going out drinking the night before, and I almost got killed. He caught me with that lethal left hook and I just went numb. The second time we sparred, there was a crowd on hand, and we didn't hold anything back. After three rounds with Frazier, boxing Godzilla for 10 rounds was nothing!

It was rumoured that I and Frazier made a pact never to fight each other because we were such good friends. That was simply not true. The reality was that if we had been offered the right amount of money, we would have fought each other. However, after two years of sparring with each other, we knew each other's style so well and had formed a mutual respect for each other's abilities."



Where's the proof that Mac Foster and Ron Lyle punched any harder than Oscar Bonavena?

None of the three knocked down Quarry but Chuvalo did.

I didn't say that any of them punched as hard as Shavers but Shavers was never in position to fight Frazier when Frazier was still around. He was beaten down by Quarry in one round.



Which punchers should he have fought then? I already proved that Shavers and Lyle were never in the position to fight Frazier.



Frazier based his legacy on winning the Olympic gold medal, beating all the top contenders of the late 1960's (look at the Ring rankings my friend), unifying the WBA, WBC & NYSAC titles and capturing the linear title against an unbeaten Muhammad Ali in perhaps the biggest fight of all time.



He landed that "occasional" right hand on Frazier a ton in their three fights and it didn't do the damage on him that it did to Foreman, Liston, Lyle...



Norton was hardly a puncher. He wore down opposition with pressure but never showed a devastating KO punch except against the heavily over-hyped Duane Bobick whose chin was found out.

There are guys with facts, and there are guys who just don't have a clue. Its obvious who has their **** together and who doesn't. Nice post A.

[princemanspoper]

not really,he blatantly ignores fraziers title defenses against unranked heavyweights while dismissing top ten heavyweights who despite what he claims were in line for a title shot,there's only so much you can argue with someone who is clear denial

[TheGreatA]

not really,he blatantly ignores fraziers title defenses against unranked heavyweights while dismissing top ten heavyweights who despite what he claims were in line for a title shot,there's only so much you can argue with someone who is clear denial

Who didn't have title defenses against unranked heavyweights? Look at some of the men Ali defended his title against, Brian London, Chuck Wepner, Jean Pierre Coopman, Richard Dunn, hardly the murderer's row.

Frazier took off year 1972 after a very hard fight against Muhammad Ali and then took on his number 1 contender George Foreman in 1973. There were no other lucrative fights for him at the time, aside from Ali and Foreman. Former KO victim Ellis was rated number 3, ancient Floyd Patterson was rated number 5, washed up Ernie Terrell was number 6.

Shavers, Lyle and Foster would've been in line for a title shot had they beaten the only top 10 ranked contender they ever faced at that point in their careers (Jerry Quarry). Unfortunately they didn't.

You can only accuse a champion of not facing his top ranked contender. Frazier always did during his title reign.

[mickey malone]

There are guys with facts, and there are guys who just don't have a clue. Its obvious who has their **** together and who doesn't. Nice post A.

I'll second that...

[Sugarj]

Yea theres some good knowledge on this thread folks.

Coming back to Frazier though, after the first Ali fight he was due a good rest but to be honest in 72 there were better challengers for his crown than Ron Stander and Terry Daniels! Full credit to him for agreeing to face Foreman though.

And full marks for getting in with Foreman again in 1976, Frazier had heart!!

[Caesar]

i think it would be duplicate fight, because sonny is very similar to foreman, i dont like to compare so perfect boxers, but thats propably the true

[jack p]

i think it would be duplicate fight, because sonny is very similar to foreman, i dont like to compare so perfect boxers, but thats propably the true

Well for one styles make fights..We have two styles here..Frazier a great swarmer
A fighter that no matter how many times he gets knocked down he will always get up
But one weakness of Fraziers style was his inability to back up.. Especially when facing a puncher..
Swarmers are always at a disadvantage when facing a puncher
With Liston we don't have any puncher..We have a puncher with an extraordinarily long reach...And Listons fists i believe circumference-wise were the largest of any heavyweight
As much as i like Frazier,,,.more honororable . bettere role model..I got to go with the puncher on this one..Frazier unable to avoid Listons heavy punches..Takes to many punches forcing a 5th round stoppage

[$Bullsfam$]

The thing is Joe took you into deep waters and drowned you with great head movement, a vicious left hook and great cardio. Foreman has an ATG chin and vicious power. The problem was Frazier just couldn't hurt Foreman and left himself vulnerable to Foreman as he stayed in front of him.

I think Liston would knock him down but I'm not sure Liston was a immovable as Foreman and could just stand there and take Frazier's best. I think Liston scores 2 or 3 knockdowns in the first 5 rounds but Frazier ALWAYS gets up and will battle back to win a decision or late stoppage. I don't think Sonny would be able to keep up with the nonstop pressure.