Should Marciano's record have been 48-1?

[CCobra]

** You read a pretty dire book, eh? Maybe Rocky should be 40-9 if he could've been DQed 9x, eh?

Me, I didn't see that many fouls in the lopsided beating that should've been stopped a couple rounds earlier.

For my money, I'd prefer to see Ali properly go to 51-11 to reflect what should've been a DQ for Dundee tampering with the gloves in Cooper 1, egregious scoring errors in the last two Norton fights, a DQ for failure to fight against Young, and a DQ for Dundee's tampering with the ropes against Foreman.

I could live with his remaining controversies.........

I definitely agree with this. Ali should have lost three times to Norton to make his record 54-7, a loss against Cooper to lower it to 53-8 and he also did not deserve the decision against Jimmy Young, who was robbed blind.

Ali should have been 52-9.

[GJC]

Newspaper report:

"MARCIANO GETS DECISION OVER LOWRY

ROCKY'S SHOWING IS WEAK AGAINST VETERAN BOXER

Brockton Boy Just Weathers Early Storm, The Foe's Attacks Slackens

There were strange developments and questions left unanswered as Rocky Marciano, undefeated young Brockton heavyweight, was awarded a unanimous decision over Tiger Ted Lowry of New Haven in their 10-rounder at the Auditorium last night. Marciano, in the first place, did not win the fight, as this observer saw it. This reporter gave it to Lowry, 6 rounds to 4, but this wasn't the dilemma - hardly. There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who came close to knocking out Marciano in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds, deliberately had bogged in his attack after the 4th stanza. Many in the crowd felt he had. As it was, the referee, Ben Maculan, warned Lowry three times to open up. In the 5th, he bellowed, "Open up, or I'll toss you out" and twice similiarly threatened him in the 7th. If Lowry had not punched with the vigor he did in the first four stanzas, this observer unhesitantly would say that Lowry intentionally slowed up. But Lowry punched as though bent on making a kill in the early stages. The wonder of it was that Marciano withstood the punishment he took. Lowry stung him with two terrific rights in the 1st. He rocked him with two vicious uppercuts in the 2nd, either of which would have finished a less durable boxer. And in the 4th, Lowry had Marciano in such a bad way that it appeared it would be only a matter of time before he would complete his kill.

Lowry stopped using his uppercut after the 4th, however. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano. The crowd booed and Maculan, not liking what he saw, stormed at Lowry, who responded with a passive look. It may have been that Lowry, nine year ring veteran, tired. It may have been that he weakened from Marciano's unending body attack, but whatever the reason, there was an appreciable decline in his offensive operations in the 2nd half of the fight and it didn't look good to the crowd, nor to this observer.

The bout ended on an exciting note, with Marciano tossing a punch after the bell and Lowry, seemingly aroused, wanting to continue. The referee stepped in and stopped the overtime hostilities. Lowry came close to flattening Rocky just before the finish with a right hook. Marciano rocked, but regained his balance. Lowry all but shattered the aura of invincibility that has been built around Marciano by the manner in which he pelted him in the early stanzas. The bout, though it probably will do Marciano much good, showed that he isn't ready for major opoosition. Marciano, who had won 19 of his previous 20 fights on knockouts, did not have his punch last night. Lowry took the steam out of him with his early blitz. There were times when Rocky merely pawed at his opponent and he carried a worried look after the 2nd round. He was much busier of the two however, particularily after the 4th. He landed three punches to Lowry's one from the 5th round on, concentrating wholly on the body. His aggressiveness and constant punching probably was what caught the eye of the three officials, but his thrusts lacked sting to be effective. Many should have been discounted altogether."

- The Providence Journal, Oct 11th, 1949

I'm not as good a researcher as yourself by some margin. Was around and following boxing at that time and my memory of the reports of the fight at the time (to be honest have no memory of seeing a film at that time of either of the Lowry fights or La Starza 1) was that Lowry was just a little too cute to allow himself to be caught by a poor Marciano. Like I say not as good a proof as you have produced just an old man's probably fading memory
Will say though reading that report it doesn't ring particularily true that Lowry not a noted big puncher in the HW division looked like knocking Marciano out in rounds 2,3 and 4.

[StarshipTrooper]

I'm not as good a researcher as yourself by some margin. Was around and following boxing at that time and my memory of the reports of the fight at the time (to be honest have no memory of seeing a film at that time of either of the Lowry fights or La Starza 1) was that Lowry was just a little too cute to allow himself to be caught by a poor Marciano. Like I say not as good a proof as you have produced just an old man's probably fading memory
Will say though reading that report it doesn't ring particularily true that Lowry not a noted big puncher in the HW division looked like knocking Marciano out in rounds 2,3 and 4.

I have to admit I hadn't thought of the Lowery fight. The first La Starza fight I knew many thought La Starza had won but that it had been a close fight that could have gone either way so no robbery there.

Poet

[TheGreatA]

I definitely agree with this. Ali should have lost three times to Norton to make his record 54-7, a loss against Cooper to lower it to 53-8 and he also did not deserve the decision against Jimmy Young, who was robbed blind.

Ali should have been 52-9.

The whole Cooper thing is a myth. Ali/Clay won fair.

I'm not as good a researcher as yourself by some margin. Was around and following boxing at that time and my memory of the reports of the fight at the time (to be honest have no memory of seeing a film at that time of either of the Lowry fights or La Starza 1) was that Lowry was just a little too cute to allow himself to be caught by a poor Marciano. Like I say not as good a proof as you have produced just an old man's probably fading memory
Will say though reading that report it doesn't ring particularily true that Lowry not a noted big puncher in the HW division looked like knocking Marciano out in rounds 2,3 and 4.

I believe the report is legit, perhaps exaggerated. Lowry was not a puncher and he was also much smaller than Marciano but according to Lowry's own words, Marciano's then wildly aggressive style played right into his hands and he had no trouble finding Marciano with his punches, particularly uppercuts.

He did have a fair KO record, 43 knockouts out of 67 wins.

The rematch was supposedly a decisive win for Marciano but Lowry once again went the distance.

Again, nothing can be said for sure but it's one of the things that is going to be brought up whenever anyone discusses Marciano's undefeated record. I personally don't think being undefeated necessarily means anything, it's about who you fought and beaten.

Despite recent criticism, Marciano did prove himself a worthy champion against the best of his time. That, to me, is more meaningful than his 49-0 record.

[GJC]

The whole Cooper thing is a myth. Ali/Clay won fair.



I believe the report is legit, perhaps exaggerated. Lowry was not a puncher and he was also much smaller than Marciano but according to Lowry's own words, Marciano's then wildly aggressive style played right into his hands and he had no trouble finding Marciano with his punches, particularly uppercuts.

He did have a fair KO record, 43 knockouts out of 67 wins.

The rematch was supposedly a decisive win for Marciano but Lowry once again went the distance.

Again, nothing can be said for sure but it's one of the things that is going to be brought up whenever anyone discusses Marciano's undefeated record. I personally don't think being undefeated necessarily means anything, it's about who you fought and beaten.

Despite recent criticism, Marciano did prove himself a worthy champion against the best of his time. That, to me, is more meaningful than his 49-0 record.

Did just check a Marciano biography I have and it says that Marciano kept battering his body but couldn't get Lowry's defense down. But biographys by their nature arn't always terribly unbiased to be fair. It also says that after the 2nd fight Marciano said they could have fought a 100 times and he would never have knocked out Lowry as his couldn't fathom his style.
Considering only 6 men lasted the distance with Marciano quite a feat of Lowry's to go the distance twice.
As you rightly say defeated or undefeated he was a worthy champion in his era and deserves respect.

[number6]

** You read a pretty dire book, eh? Maybe Rocky should be 40-9 if he could've been DQed 9x, eh?

Me, I didn't see that many fouls in the lopsided beating that should've been stopped a couple rounds earlier.

For my money, I'd prefer to see Ali properly go to 51-11 to reflect what should've been a DQ for Dundee tampering with the gloves in Cooper 1, egregious scoring errors in the last two Norton fights, a DQ for failure to fight against Young, and a DQ for Dundee's tampering with the ropes against Foreman.

I could live with his remaining controversies.........

Could have been dq'ed 9 times over in that fight, not dq'ed in 9 different fights.