Heavyweight Evolution: 90's/Current eras vs the old days. No comparison.

[GeneralZod]

Than why are you listing Frazier, Quarry, and Williams to begin with? You were clearly implying they are small.

Only one of those guys fought in the 20s anyway, so again why are you talking about the 20s? The only guy you listed that fought before the 20s was Jack Johnson. Most of them fought in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The best fighter in the 20s was a 210 pound Joe Louis who would slaughter most the division today, maybe everyone in the division today.

I didn't list failed heavyweights from today. I listed successful fighters who were beating most of the division. Who are all these great 230+ pound fighters today? Wlad, Vitali, Lewis, who else?

Joe Louis started in '34 actually, but yeah same point.

[MuhammadLewis]

Than why are you listing Frazier, Quarry, and Williams to begin with? You were clearly implying they are small.

Only one of those guys fought in the 20s anyway, so again why are you talking about the 20s? The only guy you listed that fought before the 20s was Jack Johnson. Most of them fought in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The best fighter in the 20s was a 210 pound Joe Louis who would slaughter most the division today, maybe everyone in the division today.

I didn't list failed heavyweights from today. I listed successful fighters who were beating most of the division. Who are all these great 230+ pound fighters today? Wlad, Vitali, Lewis, who else?

I won't say great.. but good? at around 230 or bigger from the modern era?

Bruno,Tua, Ike,Ruddock, Rahman, Tucker, Thompson, Mercer to list some....

than you have the very good in Vitali and Bowe.. and the great in Lewis/Wlad.

You match the 'good' of the past (Quarry,Williams, Chulavo etc) of the past against the 'good' of the modern era in Tua, Ike, Mercer, etccc and you will see that the bigger but also quite skilled and more powerful modern fighters will win most of those h2h's...

[soul_survivor]

This is an always interesting debate, heavyweights of the 20s-70s v those who came after Holmes.

I can understand those who say that the very best big men of the last 20 years, Particularly giants such as the Klits, Lewis and even Bowe would make easy work of the much smaller heavies of the earlier decades. However, I understand it but I do not agree with it entirely. Can you imagine wha ta prime, ferocious, beastly power punching Dempsey would do to Wlad's chin? Yes Wlad hits hard but how many combos does he throw? How active would he be? His defense is all about crossing his arms and jumping back, I reckon someone like Dempsey would have a field day with him.

Dempsey v someone like Vitali, Lewis or Bowe is a different story, all three men know how to go to war, I reckon they all have a great chance at beating Dempsey but Dempsey has, at the very least, a puncher's chance against Lewis....heck Rahman knocked Lewis out.

I personally think, that heavies post the 1940s, for the most part, were not so different from the heavies today, once again minusing the giants. Most of the best heavies were 6-6'3'' and 200-230 lbs, that's guys similar in size to Tyson, Holyfield, Tommy, McCall...and anyone else you care to mention.

But we've seen time and time again in boxing that it is not always size that matters, is there any heavy, over the last 40 years who has been as skilled, as quick and as tough as Ali, he'd beat any of the current champs, Frazier would knock a fair few out and I think Frazier v prime Tyson could be the greatest fight in human history. A prime Foreman would probably wreck Lewis and Wlad.

Yes nutrition is better now and there are a few giants around but in all honesty, not too much has changed. Fighters can fight on for longer and more effectively, with 35 no longer a cut off date but that doesn't mean they would automatically beat heavyweights of previous generations.

i personally believe, boxing post the 1930s is what it is now. Before that era, yes there were very crude fighters, guys who would probably get KOd now but surely a 6 foot Johnson or a small Fitzsimmons would get beat by the best heavies of today but once you progress into the 40s, 50s, 60s, especially the 70s and 80s, that is no longer the case.

[bojangles1987]

I won't say great.. but good? at around 230 or bigger from the modern era?

Bruno,Tua, Ike,Ruddock, Rahman, Tucker, Thompson, Mercer to list some....

than you have the very good in Vitali and Bowe.. and the great in Lewis/Wlad.

You match the 'good' of the past (Quarry,Williams, Chulavo etc) of the past against the 'good' of the modern era in Tua, Ike, Mercer, etccc and you will see that the bigger but also quite skilled and more powerful modern fighters will win most of those h2h's...

Except most those guys aren't really any bigger. Chuvalo was 220, so was Cleveland Williams, Lyle, Shavers, Baer, Norton, Carnera, on and on and on, these guys were all somewhere in the 210-230 range at least. Plus they made that weight in shape, unlike the guys who weigh 240 today but look like tubs of lard. So they weren't smaller than the guys you're mentioning except for Wlad, Lewis, and Vitali. They weren't noticeably more skilled either, if they are as skilled at all.

You're really talking out of your ass, that or lumping everyone who fought before 1980 into the era of "the 1920s" and assuming they were all small.

[Luilun]

I noticed a lot of posters will often nit pick a lot of weaker/out of shape Heavys from the current era and say 'see HW Boxing has not evolved.' Why not use the true standards of the word modern? Why not use the 90's fighters and throw in K2 as the model of boxing evolution:

Think about this: Do you guys honestly think that Jack Johnson, Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Joe Frazier, Jerry Quarry, Cleveland Williams and a bunch of light heavyweights can beat the likes of

Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Wladimir and Vitali Klitschko, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Ray Mercer, David Tua, Ike Ibuebechi,.... etc.. It's absurd.

David Tua would have torn the 20's apart... as would Ike. With the exception of Ali and Foreman.. everyone else from the top 30 would have been massive under dogs against the top 30 of the 90's/current era.

Let's stop using examples like Chris Arreloa and say 'see Heavyweights did not evolve'.. Let's start pointing out the 230+ Pound skilled modernized Heavys of the 90's era.. and see what the gap really is.

I say the Mike Tyson of 1986 to 1987 when under Cus beats any heavyweight of all time under King he's a top 50 and that's number 50

[MuhammadLewis]

Except most those guys aren't really any bigger. Chuvalo was 220, so was Cleveland Williams, Lyle, Shavers, Baer, Norton, Carnera, on and on and on, these guys were all somewhere in the 210-230 range at least. Plus they made that weight in shape, unlike the guys who weigh 240 today but look like tubs of lard. So they weren't smaller than the guys you're mentioning except for Wlad, Lewis, and Vitali. They weren't noticeably more skilled either, if they are as skilled at all.

You're really talking out of your ass, that or lumping everyone who fought before 1980 into the era of "the 1920s" and assuming they were all small.

No... David Tua who Lennox Lewis dominated for 12 rounds.. will dominate everyone in the 20's-50's not name Joe Louis ... All the way up to Liston. Name me one champion Pre Liston who could beat Tua?

You honestly think Rocky Marciano at 180 will beat the 230+ Tua who's also a bigger puncher, equal chin, equal heart, and equal ferocity?

We are talking here about someone Lewis destroyed for 12 rounds.. who can easily be a top 3 heavyweight of SEVERAL eras Pre 90's... that speaks volumes.

[MuhammadLewis]

Except most those guys aren't really any bigger. Chuvalo was 220, so was Cleveland Williams, Lyle, Shavers, Baer, Norton, Carnera, on and on and on, these guys were all somewhere in the 210-230 range at least. Plus they made that weight in shape, unlike the guys who weigh 240 today but look like tubs of lard. So they weren't smaller than the guys you're mentioning except for Wlad, Lewis, and Vitali. They weren't noticeably more skilled either, if they are as skilled at all.

You're really talking out of your ass, that or lumping everyone who fought before 1980 into the era of "the 1920s" and assuming they were all small.

The Bottom Line is if you list the top 100 h2h heavyweights from the 20's-Current. You will realize a majority of them came after Holmes...


The difference between you saying a lot of those early guys fought at 230+ just like the 90's guys.. is that the 90's guys had PRIME weights at 230+.. a lot of those 20's-60's guys went up to 230+ and stopped being effective....

Frank Bruno would have beaten Jack Johnson and we all know it.


Now can ****** Mariuz Wach beat Jack Johnson? I doubt it..but I will pick at least 10 90's Modern Heavys to beat Johnson... and maybe 4-5 guys after 2000 to beat Johnson as well....

[bojangles1987]

No... David Tua who Lennox Lewis dominated for 12 rounds.. will dominate everyone in the 20's-50's not name Joe Louis ... All the way up to Liston. Name me one champion Pre Liston who could beat Tua?

You honestly think Rocky Marciano at 180 will beat the 230+ Tua who's also a bigger puncher, equal chin, equal heart, and equal ferocity?

We are talking here about someone Lewis destroyed for 12 rounds.. who can easily be a top 3 heavyweight of SEVERAL eras Pre 90's... that speaks volumes.

Now you're changing the argument. Did I mention Rocky Marciano at any point? Most the fighters you have mentioned as "1920s fighters" are guys from the 1960s and 70s. I'm talking about them.

Max Baer was 6'4" 230+. He could beat Tua. I don't have near as much knowledge about heavyweights from the 20s-50s as others do, so I'm not going to pretend I do. I'm sure more than a few of them were capable of beating David Tua or Ray Mercer or Razor Ruddock or Frank Bruno.

[bojangles1987]

The Bottom Line is if you list the top 100 h2h heavyweights from the 20's-Current. You will realize a majority of them came after Holmes...


The difference between you saying a lot of those early guys fought at 230+ just like the 90's guys.. is that the 90's guys had PRIME weights at 230+.. a lot of those 20's-60's guys went up to 230+ and stopped being effective....

Frank Bruno would have beaten Jack Johnson and we all know it.


Now can ****** Mariuz Wach beat Jack Johnson? I doubt it..but I will pick at least 10 90's Modern Heavys to beat Johnson... and maybe 4-5 guys after 2000 to beat Johnson as well....

No, when those guys were out of prime they were 240+. In their primes everyone I mentioned were a rock solid 210-230 at their best. Just like Tua, who you seem to love. Just like Ruddock and Tyson and Bowe and Holyfield and Mercer.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Obviously 70s and 90s were the deepest and best heavy divisions in history....

The game has changed so much since 1920s to present...

I think guys like joe louis, jack johnson, tunney, could compete in any era...

I think jack dempesy and marciano are the 2 most overrated fighters of all-time....
Demspey wouldnt fight black guys like harry wills, and marciano could punch, no doubt, but he didnt really test himself or last long as the champ, it would be like tyson retiring after the spinks or bruno fight,,, he too would have been undefeated champ with 6 or 7 defenses,,,,

People have to remember that demspey could hover over a downed opponent and start punching as soon as knees were off the ground,,, Tyson would have just stood over douglas and bombed away after he knocked him down...

totally different sport as it was in the early 1900s