Wladimir & Vitali Klitschko

[Capaedia]

Wladimir is among the top 5 greatest heavyweights of all time.

Vitali is also in top 10.

Not by resumes (which is bull****e anyway) but, simply put, they'd rock with any of the past greats.

When you rate someone of resume, you are rating them way more objectively than if you rate them with how you see H2H going.

You rate them by how good they were as a boxer (how much this allowed them to achieve), rather than how good you think they look.

[Weltschmerz]

When you rate someone of resume, you are rating them way more objectively than if you rate them with how you see H2H going.

You rate them by how good they were as a boxer (how much this allowed them to achieve), rather than how good you think they look.

I know, and I don't necessarily rate them objectively.
I just think it's so easy for people to deny how great fighters the Klitschko's obviously are if you have eyes in your head. To just write them off with the argument that 'they didn't really fight anybody'.
Look at how dominant they have been, weak era or not, they have done something quite special in their careers.

But I don't really care what people think of them, I'm content with the fact that MANY people, also 'professional observers', and fighters alike, consider and acknowledge them great. And that's a fact!

[The Big Dunn]

wlad is in the top 50. Vitali isin the top 150-200. NIETHER HAS BEATEN ANYONE OF SUBSTANCE. Wlad has defeated everyone and he deserves credit for winning. The problem is the HWT division during wald's reign is almost universally considered one of if not the worst era of hwt boxing ever.

Vitali has lost to his 2 best opponents and has never beaten a hwt considered in the top 150-200 ever. How that translates to anything higher than 150 is crazy IMO. Essentially, most of his fans think being ahead of Lennox Lewis on the scorecards makes him great. Ridiculous.

[Scott9945]

You want a list?

Here's a list

Lennox Lewis- Ruddock FIght
Lennox Lewis - Golota FIght
Lennox Lewis- Tua Fight
Lennox Lewis- Morrison Fight
Lennox Lewis-Tyson Fight
Lennox Lewis-Vitali Fight
Lennox Lewis-Grant FIght
Lennox Lewis- Holyfield I/II Fight


Lennox Lewis beats any version, any fusion, any combination, any double version of either Klitschkos or their mamas azz.

Pele Reid also will beat either Klitschko and you know it.

Did you cry when you saw that video?
Everyone laughed , it was harilous seeing Vitali flat on his back.. dead
Think imma bump that thread now.

I asked for a list of about 50 names. And of course you came up with Lennox Lewis. Get back to me when you have 49 more. And amateur kick boxing matches from 20 years ago aren't relevant.

[JAB5239]

When you rate someone of resume, you are rating them way more objectively than if you rate them with how you see H2H going.

You rate them by how good they were as a boxer (how much this allowed them to achieve), rather than how good you think they look.

As usual, good post.

[Ray Corso]

I'm not affording you my time to make a list of men who would defeat them, instead try to evaluate them as I do!
Look at the jab, is it effecient to set up multiple combinations? Are the combinations (if ever thrown) effective? Judge the balance moving forward. backwards, side to side and is there stability in his base (legs) as he throws combinations? What is their reaction to punches thrown at them? Do they block, slip, do they counter off of slips?
If you get what I'm suggesting you can compare their jabs etc. with other boxers and try to evaluate their skills and talent! When I do that they are far down on my list.
The fact that the division is weak has NOTHING to do with my evaluation, the judging is strictly accessed by what I see in their performances!

Most fans don't have the knowledge of the sport to evaluate a fighter on techniques and methods, they see wins and knockouts! I have always given the brothers credit for their accomplishments and I think they deserve respect for them. However that doesn't mean their on the same par as others!
Can you give an example of either brothers strongest asset and tell me why its better than some of the greats? Is their jab equal to Ali's? Do they have the power of Foreman or Shavers? Are the combinations equal to Joe Louis's? I think you'll see they don't have any redeaming attributes in their arsonal. They are tall, and I've mentioned it more than once, they do know how to use their height (thanks to Manny) but they were born that way its not a talent or skill. More over if they were 6'2" their records would be relatively ordinary!! Their talent level could never off set being 6'2"!!
If you can't see what I see its ok, you don't have my expertize, boxing was my livelyhood for many years! I'm not insulting the boys at all but I can't place their talents on a high level, its simply not in their performances. Ray.

[Daddy T]

Wladimir is among the top 5 greatest heavyweights of all time.

Vitali is also in top 10.

Not by resumes (which is bull****e anyway) but, simply put, they'd rock with any of the past greats.

Wlad is approaching top ten at this stage he needs one or two more real good wins and he'll crack it. I'm thinking Price in a year or two(if price stays on track) + somebody else.

Vitali ... hmm he's a hard one to rank I mean who's his best win? Corrie Sanders?? Herbie Hyde??? He doesn't break top twenty ... H2H he'd be higher, but there is literally NO really good win on his record ... I mean he's even gotten to the point where he is ducking David Haye!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jabsRstiff]

I am so disinterested in the Klitschkos that I can't judge their place(s) in history or how they'd do in imaginary head-to-head matchups. I tend to avoid any debate about them because I think my objectivity towards them is clouded.

[Scott9945]

I am so disinterested in the Klitschkos that I can't judge their place(s) in history or how they'd do in imaginary head-to-head matchups. I tend to avoid any debate about them because I think my objectivity towards them is clouded.

It would be nice if more people were this honest.

[Scott9945]

I'm not affording you my time to make a list of men who would defeat them, instead try to evaluate them as I do!
Look at the jab, is it effecient to set up multiple combinations? Are the combinations (if ever thrown) effective? Judge the balance moving forward. backwards, side to side and is there stability in his base (legs) as he throws combinations? What is their reaction to punches thrown at them? Do they block, slip, do they counter off of slips?
If you get what I'm suggesting you can compare their jabs etc. with other boxers and try to evaluate their skills and talent! When I do that they are far down on my list.
The fact that the division is weak has NOTHING to do with my evaluation, the judging is strictly accessed by what I see in their performances!

Most fans don't have the knowledge of the sport to evaluate a fighter on techniques and methods, they see wins and knockouts! I have always given the brothers credit for their accomplishments and I think they deserve respect for them. However that doesn't mean their on the same par as others!
Can you give an example of either brothers strongest asset and tell me why its better than some of the greats? Is their jab equal to Ali's? Do they have the power of Foreman or Shavers? Are the combinations equal to Joe Louis's? I think you'll see they don't have any redeaming attributes in their arsonal. They are tall, and I've mentioned it more than once, they do know how to use their height (thanks to Manny) but they were born that way its not a talent or skill. More over if they were 6'2" their records would be relatively ordinary!! Their talent level could never off set being 6'2"!!
If you can't see what I see its ok, you don't have my expertize, boxing was my livelyhood for many years! I'm not insulting the boys at all but I can't place their talents on a high level, its simply not in their performances. Ray.

I'm not foolish enough to compare them to the very best in specific categories. I can twist that around and say their power was better than Ali's and their jab was better than Shavers. But it's pointless. I've seen lists of heavyweights go 50 deep and if we're being honest many of them wouldn't win a round against them.

Nothing is more irrelevant than supposing that they were 6'2. Shaq O'Neill wouldn't have been in the NBA if he were 6'2. Ray Lewis wouldn't be playing in the Super Bowl if he were 150 lbs. If Ricardo Lopez were their size he maybe would dominate everyone. So ****ing what? There are plenty of talented 6'6 athletes who can't fight worth a ****. It's just a weak argument.

And yes Ray, we all know about your "expertize" and "livelyhood". Yet amazingly, nobody is as impressed as you are.