Is Sugar Ray Robinson overrated?

[Weltschmerz]

Everything is subjective but take a look at Robinson's resume; he fought some of the greatest ww's and middleweights in history, moved all the way up to lhw, continued way past his prime vs hof'ers, etc. Nobody could beat him at his best, and he proved it in the ring.

[-PBP-]

For me there is a profound difference between being TGE (The Greatest Ever) and TBE (The Best Ever).

I feel like the TGE title is and probably should be judged on a more subjective (opinionated) point of view, and the TBE on a more objective (factual) point of view.

What I mean by this is that we all know that the fans appreciate a brawler and knockout artist a lot more than they do a pure boxer, but the experts appreciate them equally or lean more on the skillset and execution/application of said skill set.

To be the greatest first of all fans have to like your style and you have to pull off miracles that leave everyone stunned and/or inspired. You also have to have the personality that appeals to the broader audience on top of that.

Take for instance Chavez Sr. There's a fight that he was losing and he got a tko in the last 10 seconds or something to overturn it, and most of the guys people put in the TGE bracket have taken some loses, some even by knockout. However, coming back from a defeat like that and dominating again, or winning in the last ten seconds of a bout you were losing, those are the things that inspire humans. For some reason humans seem to naturally gravitate away from perfection. If you don't have any weaknesses and you don't lose, rather than praise you, they will diss you and say you haven't faced any real competition. Prime examples of this are GGG, Floyd Mayweather, and Andre Ward, and prime Roy Jones.

If you're perfect or your skills and/or power are so unmatched that no one can beat you, then you probably should fall under the TBE genre, which is more based on a factual analysis then a subjective one. It takes into account your skills, your application of said skills, the ranking/standing of your opponents, and your fight record (ie...the number of wins vs losses).

If this is the case, then Ali, Chavez sr, Duran, Sugar Ray (both), Manny Pacquiao etc etc would be in the argument for greatest ever, and guys like Floyd Mayweather, Andre Ward, Pernell Whitaker, Prime Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins, and maybe GGG depending on how his career turns out would fit more into the TBE argument, because they were so good in their division in terms of skillset and application of said skillset that no one could pose a threat to them. This takes into account the ABC and P4P rankings of their opponents, the dominance in said fights (punches landed for and against), ring IQ/generalship, basically all the fundamental skills and how they were applied.

So there it is, TGE/ATG = entertainment value and inspiration (of course you gotta still have a resume) and TBE = skill set and application.

Sugar Ray Robinson? Never actually watched a full fight of the guy so I can't really say, but the consensus seems to be that he is the ATG/TGE.

Good post. Being in memorable fights and being a spectacular finisher is always held in high regard. But what about when you dominate so much that you don't have a lot of memorable fights? Or if you aren't the biggest puncher, have suffered through injuries, fighting bigger fighters and have adapted your style to adjust to your age and physical condition?

It's all subjective.

[Cogitation7]

All the top boxers are overrated. It's human nature to look for heros and put one man on the top. So what we do is gather evidence to justify putting a man in that top spot. The evidence is never conclusive because there are too many factors to calculate and arrive at a REAL conclusion.....The people who do conclude that someone is the greatest are just under an illusion. Any man can be beat at any time IF the fight the wrong opponent for them. No boxer has fought anywhere near enough opponents to come to to the conclusion that they are the greatest. We don't even truly know if the fighters back in the old days were better or worse than the fighters now. It's just conjecture no matter what we believe.

The other problem is that people become overrated based on their level of fame. This is a major source of brain washing the public into overrating a fighter or any other person in any field (music, sports, science, psychology, art, beauty). Mohammed Ali, Elvis, The Beatles are all WAY overrated. They're overrated because they have a story built around their fame. They were the first to be hyped in a particular way. They had interesting stories. The overrated people had better branding because they came along at the right time, in the right era, with the right handlers around them, and the right circumstances to breed the kind of success and extraordinary fortune. People are suckers and believe the hype. Robinson was a great fighter just as Ali was but there were other guys that have been just as good and haven't benefited from the circumstances that they happened upon at the right place or time.

Nice way to put in perspective, thanks for your feed back

[Cogitation7]

Everything is subjective but take a look at Robinson's resume; he fought some of the greatest ww's and middleweights in history, moved all the way up to lhw, continued way past his prime vs hof'ers, etc. Nobody could beat him at his best, and he proved it in the ring.

Who were those greatest welterweights?

[Cogitation7]

Good post. Being in memorable fights and being a spectacular finisher is always held in high regard. But what about when you dominate so much that you don't have a lot of memorable fights? Or if you aren't the biggest puncher, have suffered through injuries, fighting bigger fighters and have adapted your style to adjust to your age and physical condition?

It's all subjective.

True. Who's greater? A fighter like you mentioned, much like Floyd or fighters who show vulnerabiltiy and sometimes lose or gets dropped faces adversity and comes back and comes back stronger?

[Cogitation7]

What don't you like about his "boxing IQ"?

Never said I didn't like it, I guess I just expected more technical ability from someone who is rated as the the greatest of all time. He seemed like raw and vicious puncher with power in both hands with crazy combos and a wicked leaping left hook like sugar shane

[-PBP-]

True. Who's greater? A fighter like you mentioned, much like Floyd or fighters who show vulnerabiltiy and sometimes lose or gets dropped faces adversity and comes back and comes back stronger?

It all depends. Overcoming adversity is important to long term success and Floyd has done that (injuries, being down on the cards against Maidana and Judah, etc.). Whitaker had to come back from behind and knockout Hurtado even though he wasn't known as a great finisher.

[Cogitation7]

like a previous poster said, the proof is in the tape.

he was a murderous puncher with both hands, had speed and could step on the gas or counter you to death if he so chose. his wars with lamotta and his win over kid gavilan is better than anything that hagler or hopkins ever did. guys who we thought were monsters growing up as welters and super welters .... guys like trinidad, odlh, vargas, mosley, cotto, margarito, clottey, hearns, srl, duran (past prime and above weight) would get absolutely murked against the real sugar and i also feel that floyd would not see the end of a 15 round fight with him. he was a murderous ballerina. no one in the game today could see srr.

personally, i see him stopping hopkins and MD hagler.

I like the way you describe him. A murderous ballerina. Which is true or at least have true, he did kill somone, right?

[Cogitation7]

It all depends. Overcoming adversity is important to long term success and Floyd has done that (injuries, being down on the cards against Maidana and Judah, etc.). Whitaker had to come back from behind and knockout Hurtado even though he wasn't known as a great finisher.

When I think of adversity I think of Marquez getting dropped and/or rocked and coming back to win the fight

[Joe Beamish]

SRR is one of the greatest. But I'm not sure he beat great welterweights. He won a ton of fights -- many against old school slow brawlers that he outclassed easily.

Look at Sugar Ray Leonard's resume: Wins against Benitez, Duran, Hearns and even Hagler.

I don't see that level of competition among Robinson's victories. (For example, Armstrong was way above his weight class and way past his prime.)