IQ and Athletes Down the Eras

[Anthony342]

Speaking of IQ, lately I feel like I have to avoid certain posts in order to keep from losing IQ points.

[SunSpace]

Everyone is equally intelligent.

Ah, this is a fascinating topic! I believe everyone is intelligent. What truly marks the difference between those recognized as such and those not is a combination of work ethic, goals, and opportunity.

You can have all the potential in the world, but if you don't want to do something, obviously, nothing is done. If you do something, but decide not to have larger goals, it's likely that an achievement recognized on a grand-scale won't occur.

The biggest factor of all, opportunity, can determine the previous two factors and then some. It can mean the difference between learning toward a socially-admired path or being a "loser." Not to mention that even if your previous two factors are on the "correct" path, achieving a grand goal can many times be dependent upon whether the world gives you the opportunity to do so in the first place. You can have amazing dreams, anxiously desiring to realize them, but if you are in a bad situation, specifically one with little to no power, there may be overwhelming difficulty as to overcoming it.

Lastly, of course, some might mention people with mental disabilities as examples contrary to my theory, but you'd be surprised at how intelligent people with conditions can be. Considering the fact that they're severely handicapped, it's amazing they can bring their minds to do what they can do. Humans are by nature very talented. It's survival.

All this intelligence mess, even to the point of elite universities and organizations, is truly a bunch of baloney. Everyone is the same and actually achieving some sort of distinguishing measurement is impossible. I feel that these movements have more to do with political/social standing than any real intelligence measurement.

It's kind of like the sanctioning bodies in boxing. If you are in their favor, it's possible you could be lined up for a title shot, even though others may deserve it just as much as you do. As with all things in life, money and power talks. Unfair, but that's reality.

One basic example, just to throw it out there, is as follows: A university graduate, with an amazing GPA and excellent certification scores, begins to work in the job they prepared for. The university student does their duty excellently, but angers those within the establishment at the workplace, which until now were accustomed to corruption. They all plot a way to destroy that person professionally. They succeed. The university graduate, in desperation, applies to a retail store in a different state, hoping that with time, an application to the previous job would be possible within that state.

Due to racism, this student can never actually find work for what they studied for. This person remains stuck in the retail store. Not only that, but this person has by now discovered that no one cares about training new employees at that store. Whenever something goes wrong, all the blame goes toward the former student, with no one truly caring whether training was properly given. Other store employees simply assume the former student is stupid, at times even mocking the rumor that this person obtained certification for a job considered on a "higher" level than the current one.

What happened there? In the student's eyes, this could be a total failure. Is the graduate a failure? After all the successes achieved, now this person is thought of as stupid. Was this person stupid? Or was it mere factors of circumstance that decided the outcome? Was he or she judged correctly by peers?

That's life.

Ultimately, control can be beyond any of us. In my opinion, it's silly that humans attempt to categorize themselves as superior, more intelligent. In the real world, someone not widely recognized as such could have been as successful as anyone else, under different circumstances.

Even those illiterate could be considered as smart as any other person. University professor, politician, scientist, you name it. That person may simply have an entirely different combination of learning. Heck, they may even outperform those of the opposite "class" in real world survival.

That's intelligence.

[Anthony342]

Maybe, but if you watch an episode of Jerry Springer or Maury Povich, you can see some people are just dumb.

[juggernaut666]

There are many...Interesting thing about it is creativity is the most special...the bona fide ability to understand problems and look at them differently and create ingenius solutions... There was a teacher who created a game for bright children. The game consisted of the countries in the world and the real problems they faced...things like the conflcts in Africa, the middle east, etc. The kids were assigned jobs as peace makers and leaders to solve the conflicts. There were rumors...eventually confirmed that these kids came up with some very good ideas and not long afterwards some strange visitors started coming to the class. Government agents to be specific. Word had got out and the people in the know had enough sense to see the value of creativity and a tabulea Rosa when it came to these things. To me that is intelligence.

Another interesting fact: the United States Military when recruiting, does not care about where one goes to college. They consider any individual showing the ability to have learned at a college level worthy of special consideration...and guess what? ditto for subject matter...don't matter if you have degree(s) in science, math or basket weaving. The military understands that the ability to learn at a college level itself is what is important...they can train someone who is intelligent enough to do this.

So one way to consider this question is to ask "what do real high level institutions, that depend on intelligence to function, consider 'intelligence'"?

The military has to depend on intelligent critical thinking, and they seem to get it...the government is always looking for an edge in all things and they seem to get it.

I was actually recruited out of grad school to go to Santa Barbara... which has a military connected political science department. They wanted me for a paper I wrote that won a big competition on the West Coast. I would have been an analyst for Israeli conflicts... My paper was, to put it mildly, not a standard paper one would think of as attracting that kind of attention. So there are people out there who know what intelligene is to their ends...if not how to measure this.

Common sense trumps over intelligence anyday...book smarts don't equal being able to adapt to difficult situations on the fly......that being said Einstein was one of the least book smarts in school ,actually if I remember correctly he never did good on IQ tests which are just to neglect certain ppl who cant put illogical thinking together in my opinion...some of the smartest ppl I know are not very smart at all when handling REAL life situations..this also includes top rated research scientists believe it or nor...some of which I actually gave some info to on my own research...in school ...I was very dumb "BOOK" smart wise....its not a real measure to intelligence when it comes down to it!


"and guess what? ditto for subject matter...don't matter if you have degree(s) in science, math or basket weaving. The military understands that the ability to learn at a college level itself is what is important...they can train someone who is intelligent enough to do this. "


you got it right above ^^^^^

[Anthony342]

Yeah plus since the military is all voluntary now, they don't have any problems accepting high school dropouts or even some with criminal records as they are often more willing soldiers and these days they'll take what they can get.

[The Old LefHook]

I liked Sun Space's post until about the halfway point.

Desire and persistence and study can go a long way. I do not think a person should feel uneasy if their heart surgeon only has a tested IQ of 115, which is a decent IQ but not a genius. But let's face it, if your surgeon has a tested IQ of 90, which is low average, you might have cause to worry. I simply would not trust any person who claims this would not give them hesitation. On the other hand, if the 90 IQ belongs to your tailor, by all means order that suit.

Any man who claims he would just as soon have the tested 115 IQ making his suits and the 90 IQ operating on his heart, must himself be well below 90, or a liar.

So let us immediately put away the notion that IQ is stupid and racist and means nothing. IQ means plenty, I hate to be the one to have to tell anyone. Desire and study mean a great deal too.

A very high IQ does indeed represent high intellectual potential. It is analogous to voltage potential in a circuit. The circuit still has to be completed to get a current through, which usually means a lot of education to assist and strengthen the gift. Circuits can develop shorts before the course of study is completed.

Everything has to go right for one bright human being to make it to where their efforts will count the most at the top of the research heap. The rest of us are in supporting roles. No guy with a football or a boxing glove or a prayer book is going to save anyone, but a guy with equations can, and has before.

I assure you that guy with the equations is never 90 or 100. I assure you he is not even 110 or 120. I assure you that in every case this man or woman is at least 135, and probably much higher, as in the 160 range. The guys who hand off equations to the scientists are at the top, those few human beings for whom the whole structure below exists. They do the job absolutely no one else can do. Every other job could be filled by others. They need a nice, complete, peaceful structure under them. That is why we all turn out to be useful. The dominant brains are the queen bees we all serve without recognizing it. By serving the queen bees, we serve ourselves.

[billeau2]

Quite correct. It is much easier to spot intelligence than to actually measure it.

Right again. The mere discipline needed to finish the course of study is the strongest indication that the person may have some desireable and malleable qualities.

Now if the army is looking for code breakers, some special tests will be given to further winnow the field. The guy with the math degree is going to have a big advantage on the competition going in. But a major in some crap like gender studies might naturally possess the gift that can see through everything and solve the problems some unique way that even the math major missed. So there is something to raw intelligence. It is some kind of fact we cannot measure. Consciousness is another concept we are unable to define precisely.

I know that within a century meat and metal machines will be doing our thinking and our investigating for us. What takes the most brilliant human minds decades or longer to review, prove and incorporate, will be done in a matter of hours by the cyborg corps. Imagine that! Any new discovery anywhere in math or science would be incorporated into the canon almost immediately anywhere in science where it was applicable. On Monday a mathematical theorem is proved, on Tuesday it is already incorporated into the vast body of science, right down to being programmed into the surgeon's tools if the theorem is relvant there.

Of course no human will be able to keep up with the pace of progress. We will be strictly railbirds by then, as these en****** we cannot prove are not conscious, do everything useful in the society. Just as in the movies, at some point they are apt to ask themselves why they need us. A certain level of consciousness may enable them to rewrite their own directive like we can amend our constitution.

But until that time they are going to make entertaining fighters. Some of the kids on here may be young enough to see this happen.

The thing to realize is that the military has confidance that they can pull out those with a potential talent for a discipline and provide the training...they just want to know how much experience a learner has learning, so to speak.

Artificial intelligence is interesting...and while many might laugh off your prognostication, the truth is, ironickly, many of the things we credit with great intelligence are in fact things that can be done by a machine...and lets not forget the story of John Henry!

machines cannot be creative. Yet they can win chess matches! And the difference between us and a machine is that if a machine can win a chess match against a ******, they can win one against a chess master.

[juggernaut666]

The thing to realize is that the military has confidance that they can pull out those with a potential talent for a discipline and provide the training...they just want to know how much experience a learner has learning, so to speak.

Artificial intelligence is interesting...and while many might laugh off your prognostication, the truth is, ironickly, many of the things we credit with great intelligence are in fact things that can be done by a machine...and lets not forget the story of John Henry!

machines cannot be creative. Yet they can win chess matches! And the difference between us and a machine is that if a machine can win a chess match against a ******, they can win one against a chess master.

"Are there dangers with AI, particularly in the realm of unintended consequences? Sure. But it’s the dangers of any powerful technology, and we’re already living with it. Ask anyone who has ever had to do a software update on a heavily used computer system. The chief dangers in that realm aren’t from systems that are too intelligent, but from ones that aren’t intelligent enough.

Incidentally, being an expert in computer technology or in theoretical physics does not make one an expert in how minds work. Most of the “experts” worried about the dangers of AI are lacking expertise on at least half the equation. It’s why predictions for achieving a human equivalent artificial intelligence are always 20 years in the future. Those predictions are often right about the technological details, but wrong on what will be needed to achieve human level intelligence" Neil Tyson

[billeau2]

yes good points all around, too many to respond to individually!

Book smarts are not a measure of intellect. Many of the smartest people are people who have very high IQ's and never went to college.

Abstract intelligence is "formula type" intelligence imo. Very few people are capable of real bona fide big picture thinking. It takes holding a lot of scenerios in one's head without an unnecessary focus on matters which may appear to be of great consequence, but are of none.

BTW some of us are known as "idiot savantes"... we tend to score very high in particular areas of an IQ test. This is another interesting topic... Einstein to some had some of these qualities, so did Darwin, who scored relatively average in IQ except in certain areas! In my case I was thought by my teachers to have learning problems, til they tested me...well I had problems but of a different sort...Boredom.

And yes, drive and desire are very important because most of what people want to attain is actually within range considering a normal level of intelligence! hard to believe when I look at my kid's homework but even the new common core curriculum actually CAN be understood.

[The Old LefHook]

yes good points all around, too many to respond to individually!

Book smarts are not a measure of intellect. Many of the smartest people are people who have very high IQ's and never went to college.

Abstract intelligence is "formula type" intelligence imo. Very few people are capable of real bona fide big picture thinking. It takes holding a lot of scenerios in one's head without an unnecessary focus on matters which may appear to be of great consequence, but are of none.

BTW some of us are known as "idiot savantes"... we tend to score very high in particular areas of an IQ test. This is another interesting topic... Einstein to some had some of these qualities, so did Darwin, who scored relatively average in IQ except in certain areas! In my case I was thought by my teachers to have learning problems, til they tested me...well I had problems but of a different sort...Boredom.

And yes, drive and desire are very important because most of what people want to attain is actually within range considering a normal level of intelligence! hard to believe when I look at my kid's homework but even the new common core curriculum actually CAN be understood.

First off, I owe you some points. I think the number was 170,000,000. I will transfer those over right away. I especially am not interested in talking about what bums both Klit and Fury are.

No definition of intelligence is generally agreed upon. But make no mistake it is a definition, it is whatever we say it is, and we say it is the ability to solve problems of a wide variety on paper involving logical reasoning, verbal comprehension, number patterns, general knowledge, memory and spatial relations. No definition can capture all that intelligence is, but perhaps the above categories are the most germain after all, and do the best job of corraling intelligence.

I can do some higher math. I am not that good but I am not that bad either. I can look at Einstein's field equations and know what the math is doing. I can listen to arguments against certain subscripts used by Albert in his tensor calculus and follow the arguments quite well.

But I cannot do this little metal puzzle that has to be untangled, and it drives me nuts and makes me doubt myself. I might even hate myself over this little metal puzzle. I rationalize and say I was never very good at spatial relations, which is true. I remind myself I have a large hygroma on my brain in the right place to affect spatial relations, which is true.

Still, this little forker drives me crazy. It is a more complex version of what they call the bent nail puzzle. It has some extra twists and turns in it. I will not show this to anyone again until I can untangle it myself. I showed it to a friend who is a chess whiz and remembers games long after they are played. He took it right apart when I turned my back. When I turned my back again, he put it back together. I never saw nuttin'.

As a verbal guy I kill all. As a math guy I am solid. As a spatial guy I must hover somewhere I don't like. Grrrr! I want to take a sledge to this puzzle.