For those who claim Pacquiao is on steroids

[Al Haymon]

so where are you basing your accusations? Pac's lean muscular body?

the fact that he can KTFO every opponnts in higher divisions?

the fact that he weigh 10 pounds over his official weight?

does Shane, Marion Jones guilty any of these?

Are Shane and Marion Jones guilty of steroid use? Are you seriously asking that?

[MaD RoBoT]

Are Shane and Marion Jones guilty of steroid use? Are you seriously asking that?

Are you seriously sure Pac is guilty of steroid use?

[aether]

I'm your huckleberry.

To be frank, not even Pacquiao's trainer, the venerable Freddie Roach, claims to know. He can believe, as he does, that he has the better fighter, but to know for sure the full effect of such a climb in weight is something else entirely.

"Manny was having a lot of trouble making 130 lately," Roach said. "He was starving himself to do it and that made him a little weak. Then he'd overeat after the weigh-in to compensate. He gained 15, 16 pounds after the weigh-in before the last (Juan Manuel) Marquez fight. That kind of extra weight makes you sluggish.

"With each fight he was feeling more and more like he'd been starving himself so he'd put more weight back on after the weigh in. That became more and more of a problem. We need to avoid that this time, but all I can do is talk to him about what to do after the weigh-in.

we all do respect Mr. Haymon, but this doesn't prove ****.

[alexpz]

Here it goes.

Nobody has come forward and said that they SAW Manny pacquiao do steroids. Just like nobody SAW Barry Bonds do steroids. And even though someone DID come forward and say they SAW Roger Clemens do roids, only half of the people believe it.

Many people believed Barry to do roids because of a confluence of circumstantial factors. His performance, his appearance, his inner circle, his environment, etc.

Many people believe Manny Pacquiao fo do steroids for those same amalgam of factors. Those are facts, although the facts don't point directly to Manny.

1) MP has put on lean muscle with very little bodyfat. He has carried his power up with him through multiple weight classes.

2) MP lives in a foreign country where the pharmaceutical regs and culture of drugs has proven more permissive (note baseball players and DR, note Klitschkos and Germany, note Chinese, note East Germans, etc)

3) MP appears to be a genetic/ethnic anomaly. Statistically speaking, Asians are a small people. So an Asian who packs on muscle and retains speed and explosiveness will draw attention. Dis*****g? Name all the great asian ww's and mw's.

4) He trains out of the Wild Card Gym in hollywood. That area in general, and that gym in particular has a history of being a haven for steroid abusers. Many of the athletes in the Wild Card gym are known and obvious drug users
.
5) His trainer has previously trained another successful steroid abuser. And there is speculation that FR may use seroids himself, since steroids and creatine have been said to provide relif from Parkinson's symptoms.


6...) etc, etc, etc

So, if you ask me to consider all this CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence into consideration, I will say that it is not nearly enough to convict Manny. But in my personal opinion? Then YES. Manny Pacquiao does steroids. That is not "an accusation". Just like FMS did not accuse Manny. You are going to have to respect that many people share that opinion.

It is not hard for me to envision that in an environment where you have competitive young male athletes, and trainers, and many of the most successful ones are drug users, and manny is in that environment every day, that either Manny or his camp would get involved in that culture.

If Shane Mosley and Kelli White and Andy Pettite and David Ortiz could get involved in steroids, why can't Manny Pacquiao? Why should manny be above discussion?

Look who's talking in here. Just a pure hater for sure.. Your are accusing a person without proof. That's a pretty lame accusation especially considering you don't have any evidence and proof..

[ummid]

Here it goes.

Nobody has come forward and said that they SAW Manny pacquiao do steroids. Just like nobody SAW Barry Bonds do steroids. And even though someone DID come forward and say they SAW Roger Clemens do roids, only half of the people believe it.

Many people believed Barry to do roids because of a confluence of circumstantial factors. His performance, his appearance, his inner circle, his environment, etc.

Manny isn't Barry/Roger. One just can't shift all the guilt from one person to another, these people aren't even related in any way.

Many people believe Manny Pacquiao fo do steroids for those same amalgam of factors. Those are facts, although the facts don't point directly to Manny.

1) MP has put on lean muscle with very little bodyfat. He has carried his power up with him through multiple weight classes.

Dedication and hardwork (as cheesy as it may sound). Steroids/hgh/ped's/etc may help you get there, but that doesn't mean it's necessary.

Genetics is another factor (leanness), one can make a case that his bro might also be taking it, but his mom? Pac was able to carry his power up multiple weight classes because his body was still developing at that time, he was mostly fighting while drained at those lower weight classes. Now that his body feels more comfortable at higher weights, his power output is of course better. His fight night weigh-ins aren't even that much different if you think about it.

2) MP lives in a foreign country where the pharmaceutical regs and culture of drugs has proven more permissive (note baseball players and DR, note Klitschkos and Germany, note Chinese, note East Germans, etc)

I hate to cry xenophobia but I smell a hint of it. Steroids doesn't play a major role on Philippine sports nor is it dependent on it. The most successful athletes from this country were from billiards and bowling.. sports where steroids wouldn't have too much effect on.

One can argue that not only is the demand of these drugs low, but the appeal of using such drugs isn't even as amiable compared here in US, where most sports rely on physical strength, stamina, etc.

Think of it like introducing viagra to an uncivilized tribe. They are so used to managing without it that they won't even bother to use it even if it's available.

3) MP appears to be a genetic/ethnic anomaly. Statistically speaking, Asians are a small people. So an Asian who packs on muscle and retains speed and explosiveness will draw attention. Dis*****g? Name all the great asian ww's and mw's.

Are you implying that since it hasn't been done before, asians just aren't meant to be great at these weight classes without cheating? You can't just label Manny Pacquiao as just an Asian when it comes to boxing just like you can't just label Arthur Ashe as a black person when it comes to tennis (or Tiger Woods with golf). What you call a genetic/ethnic anomaly can also be called "gifted".

If you want my take on it, I believe Pac just isn't aware of these boundaries people are placing around him. This man has always been fighting against the odds his entire life that he developed a hunger for it. He thrives on being the underdog so much that in his mind set, nothing can't be overcome with sheer willpower... and that is what I think sets him apart from the rest.

4) He trains out of the Wild Card Gym in hollywood. That area in general, and that gym in particular has a history of being a haven for steroid abusers. Many of the athletes in the Wild Card gym are known and obvious drug users
.
5) His trainer has previously trained another successful steroid abuser. And there is speculation that FR may use seroids himself, since steroids and creatine have been said to provide relif from Parkinson's symptoms.

San Francisco is the gay capital of the world does that mean anyone who lives there is gay or has a good chance of being gay? FR wasn't directly linked or blamed with the toney scandal and the rest are mere speculations.

I could also argue that all these wild card gym/freddie roach-steroid connection is enough to make pac paranoid from taking steroids since he's on the spot light, and with everything at stake here the risk just isn't worth the rewards.

Even if he loses, his country will still support him, but if he's found out to be cheating, he would lose everything. Considering all he's done in the past (humanitarian and publicity), I'm pretty sure Pac can handle losing better than his own country disowning him. He is much too proud for that.

6...) etc, etc, etc

So, if you ask me to consider all this CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence into consideration, I will say that it is not nearly enough to convict Manny. But in my personal opinion? Then YES. Manny Pacquiao does steroids. That is not "an accusation". Just like FMS did not accuse Manny. You are going to have to respect that many people share that opinion.

It is not hard for me to envision that in an environment where you have competitive young male athletes, and trainers, and many of the most successful ones are drug users, and manny is in that environment every day, that either Manny or his camp would get involved in that culture.

If Shane Mosley and Kelli White and Andy Pettite and David Ortiz could get involved in steroids, why can't Manny Pacquiao? Why should manny be above discussion?

No one can stop anyone from expressing his/her opinion no matter how ignorant, tasteless or biased it is, that is the sad truth. The only possible thing is to ask that person to be a bit more open minded when it comes to reasoning and the effects that opinion may bring.

Here's the thing.. I don't get why you are insisting that pac is in your opinion taking steroids. Are you open minded enough to accept that your opinion maybe wrong if someone gives enough reasoning? or are you just dead set that he really is on steroids? Do you really want to have a discussion on the matter or are you just like one of those religious freaks that just keeps preaching but never debates?

I will admit that pac is one of my favorite boxers because of his passion for the sport but I would also discredit him or any boxer if enough evidence is given. That would be a disgrace not just to the sport itself but to what the boxer is fighting for.

Until then, I think it's just plain spineless, barbaric and abhorrent to just degrade anyone after all the hardships and challenges he has gone through. It's one thing to call someone overrated, one dimensional or cherry picker but to imply with just speculations that someone is using unfair advantages to win is just distasteful and I'm pretty sure you're man enough to know that.

[rao007]

Here it goes.

Nobody has come forward and said that they SAW Manny pacquiao do steroids. Just like nobody SAW Barry Bonds do steroids. And even though someone DID come forward and say they SAW Roger Clemens do roids, only half of the people believe it.

Many people believed Barry to do roids because of a confluence of circumstantial factors. His performance, his appearance, his inner circle, his environment, etc.

Many people believe Manny Pacquiao fo do steroids for those same amalgam of factors. Those are facts, although the facts don't point directly to Manny.

1) MP has put on lean muscle with very little bodyfat. He has carried his power up with him through multiple weight classes.

2) MP lives in a foreign country where the pharmaceutical regs and culture of drugs has proven more permissive (note baseball players and DR, note Klitschkos and Germany, note Chinese, note East Germans, etc)

3) MP appears to be a genetic/ethnic anomaly. Statistically speaking, Asians are a small people. So an Asian who packs on muscle and retains speed and explosiveness will draw attention. Dis*****g? Name all the great asian ww's and mw's.

4) He trains out of the Wild Card Gym in hollywood. That area in general, and that gym in particular has a history of being a haven for steroid abusers. Many of the athletes in the Wild Card gym are known and obvious drug users
.
5) His trainer has previously trained another successful steroid abuser. And there is speculation that FR may use seroids himself, since steroids and creatine have been said to provide relif from Parkinson's symptoms.


6...) etc, etc, etc

So, if you ask me to consider all this CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence into consideration, I will say that it is not nearly enough to convict Manny. But in my personal opinion? Then YES. Manny Pacquiao does steroids. That is not "an accusation". Just like FMS did not accuse Manny. You are going to have to respect that many people share that opinion.

It is not hard for me to envision that in an environment where you have competitive young male athletes, and trainers, and many of the most successful ones are drug users, and manny is in that environment every day, that either Manny or his camp would get involved in that culture.

If Shane Mosley and Kelli White and Andy Pettite and David Ortiz could get involved in steroids, why can't Manny Pacquiao? Why should manny be above discussion?

The amount of fallacies you committed is beyond belief.

1.) The generalization that all asians are small without actually considering the ones who can afford enough food and live in an enviroment conducive to good mental and phsyical development.

Pacquiao is small--he weighs in the low 150s while not training. That's why he's never rehydrated anything past 148. Pacquiao's thick lower body is the reason why he's been able to move up in weight (LWW and JWW) without losing much of his quickness, and the fact, he's been rehydrating nearer to his natural weight--not having to rehydrate 16lbs or more from SFW.

Al Haymon, what's the average natural weight for asian males? 135? 140? I weigh 180lbs. Is it somewhere in the middle?

2.) Guilt by association: that if Roach trained an athelete that's had a history of steroid use ergo that's how he naturally conducts his trade.

3.)Slippery slope: the coincidence that his gym is in Hollywood therefore Manny more than likely becomes a steroid user with regards to the tone of your claim. Do you even want me to give an example of how ****** this sounds?

4.)Hasty Conclusion: living in the Philippines makes Pacquiao a good candidate as a drug abuser based on hearsay on the drug culture there.

5.) Hasty conclusion: having lean muscle without fat means steroids. Why don't you actually look at pictures of Manny when he's not training not unless he uses steroids during his vacation time--that's his natural physique.




It's hilarious how you claim your argument is an opinion with the amount of rebuttals you've made, trying to make it sound VALID when an opinion is more or less a feeling not based on factual information or sound reason.

[IMDAZED]

Look man, no one knows. But those people who are acting like it CAN'T happen are just ******. I've spoken to heads from the Nevada State Athletic Commission and they've admitted that the tests are ridiculously easy to beat and also that there are su****ions over some of the top fighters. There has always been rumors regarding Roach (not just James Toney but Bobby Pacquiao, Bernabe "roid rage" Concepcion and Roach himself). Not to mention the very loud whispers coming out of Wildcat.

I don't know and I really hope not. But would I be surprised? Am I gonna act like that's impossible and you're an idiot for suggesting it? Heck to the no. As fans, we should all know better by now.

[Al Haymon]

Are you seriously sure Pac is guilty of steroid use?

Did you read my post? Did I say I was seriously sure Pac was guilty, or did I say clearly and plain-as-day that this CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence is not enough to convict Pac?

[Doctor_Tenma]

Look man, no one knows. But those people who are acting like it CAN'T happen are just ******. I've spoken to heads from the Nevada State Athletic Commission and they've admitted that the tests are ridiculously easy to beat and also that there are su****ions over some of the top fighters. There has always been rumors regarding Roach (not just James Toney but Bobby Pacquiao, Bernabe "roid rage" Concepcion and Roach himself). Not to mention the very loud whispers coming out of Wildcat.

I don't know and I really hope not. But would I be surprised? Am I gonna act like that's impossible and you're an idiot for suggesting it? Heck to the no. As fans, we should all know better by now.

Where did you hear all this?

[IMDAZED]

Where did you hear all this?

You're around, you hear it. We'll leave it at that. But anyway, I'm not saying everything you hear is true. But with steroids...man, everyone's a suspect. And when you see so many clues circling one situation, it's not hard to draw your own conclusion.

You people acting like Floyd Sr. is so crazy oughta know that he's only bringing to public what a lot of people are whispering in private, right or wrong. And what was Pac/Roach's reaction? "I don't even know what they are" and "I don't think so." Sure helps.

I remember some years back someone telling me Jameel McCline was a heavy user. Would people be more willing to believe that because it's a fighter they don't care about? I'm afraid the answer is yes.