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#31
Old 11-07-2010, 05:59 AM
nomadman
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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
I meant based on ability.
While the names on Lewis' resume are bigger consider that Tua had no hope against him from the beginning for obvious visible reasons and Lewis fought well done versions of Tyson and Holyfield and was convincingly stopped by Rahman and McCall .
Not sure how you can say that. Vitali's more skillful than he looks (in much the same way Froch is) but Lewis was one of the most skilled big men of all times, and demonstrated this on a number of occasions. His problem was never lack of skill but complacency, and the fact that he emphatically avenged all his losses shows this to be true.

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
Did anyone stop Vitali that way ? Lewis won just because of the cuts , not because he beat Vitali seriously.
No he won because he punched Vitali repeatedly in the face. He also hurt him on several occasions, most notably right at the end of the sixth where Vitali was stumbling forward desperately attempting to hold on to Lewis's waist. And Lewis of course was rocked bad in the second.

Listen, I'm a fan of both fighters but I get so sick of trying to dispell the bullshit that is repeatedly thrown from both sides, "Vitali was destroying Lewis fifteen rounds to one," "oh, Lewis was fat and 143 years old," "Vitali was on his way to knocking Lewis out in the 7th," "Lewis only had five minutes to prepare for the fight," etc etc. It's all crap and takes away the lustre from what was a hell of a good (and close) scrap.

Last edited by nomadman; 11-07-2010 at 06:01 AM.
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#32
Old 11-07-2010, 06:04 AM
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#33
Old 11-07-2010, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by It's Ovah View Post
Not sure how you can say that. Vitali's more skillful than he looks (in much the same way Froch is) but Lewis was one of the most skilled big men of all times, and demonstrated this on a number of occasions. His problem was never lack of skill but complacency, and the fact that he emphatically avenged all his losses shows this to be true.
No. Lewis could never avenge his loss to McCall. His team (managers , promoters , etc) had to sign McCall to their rematch while McCall was a rehabilitation institute resident.

The outcome was far from spectacular / impressing / telling / relevant.
It was meaningful only for Lewis' nuthuggers and to blind ignorants who consider every win the same (as long as it was not Marciano's over Louis , Holmes' over Ali , Tyson over Holmes' or Lewis' over Tyson)
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#34
Old 11-07-2010, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
No. Lewis could never avenge his loss to McCall. His team (managers , promoters , etc) had to sign McCall to their rematch while McCall was a rehabilitation institute resident.

The outcome was far from spectacular / impressing / telling / relevant.
It was meaningful only for Lewis' nuthuggers and to blind ignorants who consider every win the same (as long as it was not Marciano's over Louis , Holmes' over Ali , Tyson over Holmes' or Lewis' over Tyson)
But if he didnt fight McCall, there would be people like you saying he ducked him to avoid getting ktfo again.
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#35
Old 11-07-2010, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Napalm Death View Post
But if he didnt fight McCall, there would be people like you saying he ducked him to avoid getting ktfo again.
So pulling McCall from rehab institute was a great compromise , now I got u.
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#36
Old 11-07-2010, 11:19 AM
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He may have lost one to Arreola.
No way, he won every round against Arreola, he lost a round perhaps against Gomez, maybe.
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#37
Old 11-07-2010, 11:31 AM
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First off I don't think Vitali's unbeatable, but I also don't think any fighter barring Wlad today possesses the right mix of attributes and skills to pull off a win. Haye's got the speed and power, but lacks the chin and stamina. Adamek's got the adaptability and stamina but lacks the power or the size. Solis has got the power and the skill but lacks the discipline. And the list goes on.

I think, hypothetically, the type of fighter to beat him would be someone who possesses the fleet footedness to stay on the outside way out of range of Vit's shots, and the timing to leap in with quick hurtful shots of his own, the way Haye did at times to Valuev. He would also need the tricksy head movement of a Chris Byrd to avoid Vitali's return shots when in the pocket. The hypothetical fighter would have to maintain intelligent pressure all night long, ie not just stomping forward throwing the occasional jab, right hand like Arreola, Peter, Williams and countless others did, but making Vitali work with feints, side to side movement, body and head shots etc. JC Gomez had a a bit of success with this in the early rounds. Mr Hypothetical probably can't expect to just blast Vitali out of there in the first few rounds, or even win the first few rounds, so he has to put work in the bank, attack Vitali's body with straight shots, with the occasional overhand to keep him guessing. Whilst he's doing that he'll need to constantly pivot around Vitali's power side to take the sting off his right hand, without making it clear he's doing so. By the mid rounds, hopefully Vitali will be hurting from the body shots (hard to say since no one's really made a concerted effort to go to his body, but let's assume he is) Mr Hypothetical can start to go upstairs more with hurtful shots a la Hide and Sanders, catch Vitali's respect and prevent him from steamrolling him. If he does find himself being pushed back by Vitali's pressure, he needs to try to get low, bob and weave out of the way of Vitali's rights and lefts, but with his guard up to prevent uppercuts, as well as the presence of mind to know when Vitali gives him an opening for a counter as Sanders was able to do at times. Alternatively, he could adopt the Kevin Johnson shoulder roll against the ropes, which was extremely effective at negating Vitali's best work, but this wouldn't really give him too many opportunities to effectively counter given the pressure he'd be under. Speaking of Johnson, a good jab would be essential in this matchup. Vitali's vulnerable to a quick long jab and tends to mark up easily; even Sosnowski was catching him at times. I don't think maintaining the jab against Vitali is a winning strategy, rather, Mr Hypothetical would need to use it as one of many tools to keep Vitali honest, along with the bodyshots, overhands, etc. If he can stick to his gameplan and minimise the damage he receives then the later rounds become very interesting. Is Vitali hurt, is he tired, is he disheartened? He was certainly all three at the end of the Lennox fight, but that was a long time ago now, and involved a horrendous cut to boot. I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of a KO or TKO here, good as Vitali's chin is, but more likely they would fight to a decision. This is where Mr Hypothetical's heart, concentration and ability to fight through debilitating exhaustion comes into play, because he will have most certainly expended a hell of a lot of energy both nervous and physical up to this point. As mentioned above, the only fighter to really show the ability to do that was Lennox, and that was only a six round fight! How many fighters today possess the type of mindset to do that? Only Adamek, to my mind.

So, anyway, I'm not saying the above is a watertight blueprint for beating Vitali, since there are a lot of unknown factors involved. Rather, it's a collection of things that various opponents (most of whom lost the fight) had success against Vitali with at times. Also, I've avoided trying to make a superman, or of trying to match height and weight with Vitali since big skilled men are extremely rare. Instead, I've assumed that Mr Hypothetical is around the 6 foot 1, 6 foot 3 mark, and around 220 - 230lb, since traditionally this is where the most skillful heavyweights have been in height and weight.
Great analysis, but as spray resistant said, you described a fighter with no weaknesses and only strengths, the only fighter that is out there like that is Vitaly himself. You could have taken Ali for skill and heart but Ali doesn't have the size or power to hurt Vitaly (barring an unfortunate shoulder injury ala Byrd). You could take the power of Foreman but he didn't have the movement or skill to get to Vitaly. You could take the size, skill, and power of Lewis but he didn't have the chin or stamina to handle Vitaly (again, an injury TKO, not a real win). You could take the power, agility, and quickness of a prime Hide but he didn't have the chin to stand up to Vitaly. Vitaly, if there are no injuries involved has so far proven to be unbeatable. I think H2H, Vitaly beats any HW in history, by KO or TKO. His only non-KO wins came 1) Timo Hoffman, fight immediately after his shoulder surgery, he was taking it easy 2) Jhonson and Briggs - the man is almost 40, way past his prime and has had 4+ surgeries on the shoulder, knees, and back, plus Jhonson was ten years younger and refused to engage, very hard to knock a fighter out who doesn't engage and Briggs, well he almost killed Briggs in that ring.
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#38
Old 11-07-2010, 11:59 AM
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Generally, i'd say there's two ways:

1. be small and mobile, using lateral movement, head movement, speed and combinations to make VK move, turn and follow you. Wear him out and use speed and movement to take rounds. Probably need a good chin for this one to take punches from a man that size and, recently, in that volume.

2. have the size, strength and power to stand your ground and not let him back you up. Matching his size and volume, as well as strength, seems a good way to weaken and nullify what he brings - turning the tables, or at least making things a lot more even.


Now if you could get a guy with excellent movement and speed, coupled with the power and chin, then that'd be a solid pick against VK. But how many people possess or have possessed all these attributes?!
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