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#51
Old 01-29-2010, 03:35 PM
P4P Opinion
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Tucker was way past his best and a crack-cocaine addict, Bruno had been knocked out 3 times with two of the 3 being knocked unconscious.. so certainly not Class A fighters
I didn't say they were Class A fighters. I'm saying that they were solid opposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis got poleaxed.. i was at the fight and McCall silenced 14,000 fans with one big punch.. many at ringside was shouting "Stop it" as Lewis fell into referee`s arms.. the fight was rightly stopped and as Lewis left the ring 10 minutes after being stopped he had to be helped down the ring steps by his handlers, his eyes was still glassy, he was out of it....
It was a World title fight and he should have been given a chance to continue. He didn't look so glassy that he didn't stand a chance of surviving the round. Lewis might well have been decked again, but we don't know.

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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
its been proven many times on this forum..
Cop out. Give me a source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis "DID NOT" have to accept the step-a-side money.. he could have easily said `no-thanks` and took a gauranteed world title shot and career highest purse.. he accepted because being No1 contender he did not fancy his chances against that version of Mike Tyson and waited 6yrs more and several more prison sentences for Mike Tyson to completely self-destruct before fighting him.
No, he did not have to accept step-aside money but he also wasn't getting a guaranteed title shot - Tyson could have just dropped the belt. Everything else you're saying is just your spin on the situation, not the cold facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis should have been going after the big fish of the heavyweight division, Bowe, Tyson, Moorer, Mercer, Witherspoon, Sanders, Holyfield, Foreman instead of fighting a guy he knew was in a drug-rehab.
So easy to say from the fan position and in hindsight. It's been documented that Bowe gave up his title rather than fight Lewis (although you've decided to spin that as Lewis 'pricing himself out').

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
43 of 48 ringside journalists scored the fight for Holyfield.
Then 43 of 48 ringside journalists didn't score the fight right. I'd like to see a source for that anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis fans like to claim Riddick Bowe ducked him but wont accept Lewis was stripped of his belts for refusing to fight the No1 contenders...
The number one contenders Lewis didn't face were Byrd and Ruiz, opponents that couldn't deliever big paydays. I don't condone him not facing them though, I just understand the reasoning. Lewis would have been a big payday and a very credible opponent for Bowe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Michael Grant was floored twice in the opening round against Golota and behind on the cards when Golota suddenly quit... Grant was well exposed as `Nothing-Special`...
I agree, but it didn't stop the hype and the demand for the fight at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
David Tua was the fattest man in history to fight for the title..
Have you never watched James Toney at heavyweight? Anyway, that doesn't matter as Tua was and still is very solid opposition for anyone at heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Tyson was more than a decade past his best having been brutally KOd by Buster Douglas 12yrs earlier and KOd by Holyfield 6yrs earlier.. Tyson had served several prison sentences and on fight night was heavily sedated with anti-depressants...Tyson was KOd by both Danny Williams & Kevin McBride and was a shot fighter....
I don't disagree that he was past his best, but I stand by the claim that he was still better than 90% of the other heavyweight opposition out there at the time. Your last point about Danny Williams and Kevin McBride is irrelevant as those losses occured afterwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis was stripped for refusing to fight Chris Byrd claiming Byrd `posed no threat` yet Byrd beat Holyfield and Tua far easier than Lewis had..
He may have said that, but the bigger reason was the lack of cash. Lewis fought credible opposition instead anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Klitschko would have beaten Lewis....
You cannot say that for sure. Lewis was losing by two rounds at most and had won the last two rounds and it could therefore be argued that he had the momentum in the fight. Lewis won by genuine TKO anyway as the cut was caused by a punch, even if Lewis was a little fortunate.
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#52
Old 01-29-2010, 03:36 PM
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because they are morons.
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#53
Old 01-29-2010, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by P4P Opinion View Post
I didn't say they were Class A fighters. I'm saying that they were solid opposition.



It was a World title fight and he should have been given a chance to continue. He didn't look so glassy that he didn't stand a chance of surviving the round. Lewis might well have been decked again, but we don't know.



Cop out. Give me a source.



No, he did not have to accept step-aside money but he also wasn't getting a guaranteed title shot - Tyson could have just dropped the belt. Everything else you're saying is just your spin on the situation, not the cold facts.



So easy to say from the fan position and in hindsight. It's been documented that Bowe gave up his title rather than fight Lewis (although you've decided to spin that as Lewis 'pricing himself out').



Then 43 of 48 ringside journalists didn't score the fight right. I'd like to see a source for that anyway.



The number one contenders Lewis didn't face were Byrd and Ruiz, opponents that couldn't deliever big paydays. I don't condone him not facing them though, I just understand the reasoning. Lewis would have been a big payday and a very credible opponent for Bowe.



I agree, but it didn't stop the hype and the demand for the fight at the time.



Have you never watched James Toney at heavyweight? Anyway, that doesn't matter as Tua was and still is very solid opposition for anyone at heavyweight.



I don't disagree that he was past his best, but I stand by the claim that he was still better than 90% of the other heavyweight opposition out there at the time. Your last point about Danny Williams and Kevin McBride is irrelevant as those losses occured afterwards.



He may have said that, but the bigger reason was the lack of cash. Lewis fought credible opposition instead anyway.



You cannot say that for sure. Lewis was losing by two rounds at most and had won the last two rounds and it could therefore be argued that he had the momentum in the fight. Lewis won by genuine TKO anyway as the cut was caused by a punch, even if Lewis was a little fortunate.
Lewis vs McCall (1) was stopped correctly i know because i was there... you was not there so you dont know so please dont comment on it because like i said "you was not there"

here is a link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Lewis was the No1 contender, why would Tyson drop the belt?... in 1996 Lewis was thought of as nothing more than a 1st round KO for Tyson.. he had just been poleaxed by Tysons sparring partner so would have been a huge outsider against Mike Tyson

1995 Lewis was offered a gauranteed $10 million to face Riddick Bowe.. its been well documented on this site.. look for yourself a source there will be dozens to read and you will educate yourself

its upto yourself to read up on boxing and find the sources for your information... 43 of 48 boxing journalists at ringside had Holyfield a clear winner of their rematch..here is a link from a british fight publication..

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/9912/one.htm

Lewis refused to fight the No1 contenders because he knew he could not beat them and that they was at the top of their game and not class C fighter who was on the downside of their career like the huge majority of Lewis opponents... Ruiz had put Holyfield on the canvas something Lewis never came near to doing in 24rds

i can recall very little hype or demand for Lewis vs Grant thats why the fight was not fought in Las Vegas..

Tua has been beaten each time he has fought an opponent who was rated above class C with the exception of his "Lucky first-punch" victory over John Ruiz 15yrs ago

you claiming Mike Tyson was NOT past his best is laughable... he was at least 10yrs past his best, he had been hammered by Buster Douglas 12yrs earlier & Holyfield 6yrs earlier, he had served a total of 5yrs in prison and was a `shell of the once great fighter`.. his losses to Williams & McBride prove he was past it...

who was the "credible opposition" Lewis fought which you claim, instead of fighting Byrd.... Fans Botha?

Lewis was slumped on his stool knackered when his fight with Klitschko was stopped and to almost everyone watching Lewis did not have more than one more round in him, to claim otherwise is simply deluding yourself
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#54
Old 01-29-2010, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Rado View Post
It's also partly because his legacy fights were against fighters who were well past their prime;
vitali klitschko, hasim rahman, david tua.
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#55
Old 01-29-2010, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis vs McCall (1) was stopped correctly i know because i was there... you was not there so you dont know so please dont comment on it because like i said "you was not there"

here is a link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo
I still don't agree and you shouldn't presume that I wasn't there. I wasn't, but I could have easily been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis was the No1 contender, why would Tyson drop the belt?... in 1996 Lewis was thought of as nothing more than a 1st round KO for Tyson.. he had just been poleaxed by Tysons sparring partner so would have been a huge outsider against Mike Tyson
Maybe you considered Lewis this way, but I don't recall anyone thinking like that. Why would Mike Tyson drop the belt? To avoid facing Lewis. Either because he would have been a difficult opponent or because he wasn't going to produce a big payday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
1995 Lewis was offered a gauranteed $10 million to face Riddick Bowe.. its been well documented on this site.. look for yourself a source there will be dozens to read and you will educate yourself. its upto yourself to read up on boxing and find the sources for your information...
Haha. No it isn't up to me to find sources for your claims. It's up to you to back up your claims with evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
43 of 48 boxing journalists at ringside had Holyfield a clear winner of their rematch..here is a link from a british fight publication..

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/9912/one.htm
Fair enough. 43 scribes didn't score that fight right then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis refused to fight the No1 contenders because he knew he could not beat them and that they was at the top of their game and not class C fighter who was on the downside of their career like the huge majority of Lewis opponents... Ruiz had put Holyfield on the canvas something Lewis never came near to doing in 24rds
Haha. Scared of Ruiz? Please. You're making yourself look foolish now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
i can recall very little hype or demand for Lewis vs Grant thats why the fight was not fought in Las Vegas..
Well perhaps I've just considering the boxing hardcore here, but I remember discussing it a lot with American boxing friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Tua has been beaten each time he has fought an opponent who was rated above class C with the exception of his "Lucky first-punch" victory over John Ruiz 15yrs ago
Perhaps. I'm not suggesting he is World-class anyway. I'm just calling him a very solid opponent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
you claiming Mike Tyson was NOT past his best is laughable... he was at least 10yrs past his best, he had been hammered by Buster Douglas 12yrs earlier & Holyfield 6yrs earlier, he had served a total of 5yrs in prison and was a `shell of the once great fighter`.. his losses to Williams & McBride prove he was past it...
Please don't put words in my mouth. I said that Mike Tyson was still better than the majority of the heavyweight division at the time, not that he wasn't past his best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
who was the "credible opposition" Lewis fought which you claim, instead of fighting Byrd.... Fans Botha?
I was referring more to Tua, but I already know what you think of him...


Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Lewis was slumped on his stool knackered when his fight with Klitschko was stopped and to almost everyone watching Lewis did not have more than one more round in him, to claim otherwise is simply deluding yourself


Suit yourself. I haven't met anyone who hadn't given the last two rounds of the fight to Lewis. Regardless, he won legitimately by TKO and we will never know how that fight would have gone on.
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#56
Old 01-29-2010, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P4P Opinion View Post
I didn't say they were Class A fighters. I'm saying that they were solid opposition.



It was a World title fight and he should have been given a chance to continue. He didn't look so glassy that he didn't stand a chance of surviving the round. Lewis might well have been decked again, but we don't know.



Cop out. Give me a source.



No, he did not have to accept step-aside money but he also wasn't getting a guaranteed title shot - Tyson could have just dropped the belt. Everything else you're saying is just your spin on the situation, not the cold facts.



So easy to say from the fan position and in hindsight. It's been documented that Bowe gave up his title rather than fight Lewis (although you've decided to spin that as Lewis 'pricing himself out').



Then 43 of 48 ringside journalists didn't score the fight right. I'd like to see a source for that anyway.



The number one contenders Lewis didn't face were Byrd and Ruiz, opponents that couldn't deliever big paydays. I don't condone him not facing them though, I just understand the reasoning. Lewis would have been a big payday and a very credible opponent for Bowe.



I agree, but it didn't stop the hype and the demand for the fight at the time.



Have you never watched James Toney at heavyweight? Anyway, that doesn't matter as Tua was and still is very solid opposition for anyone at heavyweight.



I don't disagree that he was past his best, but I stand by the claim that he was still better than 90% of the other heavyweight opposition out there at the time. Your last point about Danny Williams and Kevin McBride is irrelevant as those losses occured afterwards.



He may have said that, but the bigger reason was the lack of cash. Lewis fought credible opposition instead anyway.



You cannot say that for sure. Lewis was losing by two rounds at most and had won the last two rounds and it could therefore be argued that he had the momentum in the fight. Lewis won by genuine TKO anyway as the cut was caused by a punch, even if Lewis was a little fortunate.

This user, Sonnybox, once even blamed Lewis for Tommy Morrison getting Aids.
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#57
Old 01-29-2010, 07:46 PM
Dave Rado
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Originally Posted by P4P Opinion View Post
Who on Earth scored the second fight for Holyfield?
Lots of people did, including some boxing experts, although a majority scored it narrowly to Lewis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P4P Opinion View Post
You simply don't know how to score a fight if you thought Holyfield won that fight.
Rubbish.

E.g. see The New York Times:
"Many people at ringside felt Holyfield landed more telling blows and should have won the bout."
And Cliff Rold of Boxingscene:
"Holyfield fell short, first in a controversial draw few thought Holyfield came close to winning and then in a decision rematch which had a vocal minority favoring Holyfield ... Even after the drubbing he took in the ***8216;draw***8217; with Lewis, it was Holyfield whose game made the second fight. Jabbing to the chest and raising the angle of his right hand, Holyfield stunned Lewis a few times with newly created offensive openings. A case could be made that, in the end, the results in the Lewis fights were correct on their records if in the wrong order. "
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#58
Old 01-29-2010, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by z0jo View Post
most lists i seen have him in top 5
You must be looking at British lists then. Most boxing historians rate him either just inside or just outside the top 10. Monte D Cox, one of the most respected boxing historians in the business, rates him at #9. The International Boxing Research Organisation or IBRO (whose ratings are a consensus poll of 30 of the most highly respected boxing historians) ranks him at #12.
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