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#31
Old 11-05-2009, 01:04 PM
GJC
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Ruddock - Damaged goods after Jaw & eyesocket smashed by Tyson
Tucker - Junkie
Jackson - who?
Butler - who?
Fortune - who?
Bruno - gave Lewis a lesson in jabbing
McCall (1) - sparring partner Journeyman
Morrison - HIV
Mercer - case can be made that Mercer was `robbed of decision
Akinwande - class C
McCall (2) - Junkie who was only days out of rehab
Golota - sedated with tranquilizers in dressing room after panic attack
Briggs - over-weight, yet staggered Lewis
Mavrovic - Who?..
Botha - Junkie undeserving of title shot
Tua - Fattest man to ever fight for title (weighed over 250lbs)
Holyfield - Yrs past best days yet robbed of decision in 2nd fight
Grant - ex basketballer undeserving of title fight, Class C fighter
Rahman - journeyman who poleaxed Lewis
Tyson - Decade past best days, shell of former ATG (was sedated)
Klitschko - unfortunate loser who was refused rematch
You can do this about any fighter who laced on gloves.
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#32
Old 11-05-2009, 01:13 PM
sonnyboyx2
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You can do this about any fighter who laced on gloves.
OK GJC i challenge you to have a go at doing it with Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson (championship fights)
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#33
Old 11-05-2009, 01:39 PM
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Ruddock - Damaged goods after Jaw & eyesocket smashed by Tyson
Tucker - Junkie
Jackson - who?
Butler - who?
Fortune - who?
Bruno - gave Lewis a lesson in jabbing
McCall (1) - sparring partner Journeyman
Morrison - HIV
Mercer - case can be made that Mercer was `robbed of decision
Akinwande - class C
McCall (2) - Junkie who was only days out of rehab
Golota - sedated with tranquilizers in dressing room after panic attack
Briggs - over-weight, yet staggered Lewis
Mavrovic - Who?..
Botha - Junkie undeserving of title shot
Tua - Fattest man to ever fight for title (weighed over 250lbs)
Holyfield - Yrs past best days yet robbed of decision in 2nd fight
Grant - ex basketballer undeserving of title fight, Class C fighter
Rahman - journeyman who poleaxed Lewis
Tyson - Decade past best days, shell of former ATG (was sedated)
Klitschko - unfortunate loser who was refused rematch
Youre so right! Except for Mavrovic, while its true he wasn't famous, he was still better than many of the tomato cans Lewis fought. He'd ice Jackson, Butler, Briggs, Botha and that Fortune guy for sure! He won 27 fights before the one with Lewis, 22 on KO. So this guy was no joke. Smoked Przemyslaw Saleta in 1 round to take the Euro belt. Also beat a younger Julius Francis by TKO8.
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#34
Old 11-05-2009, 02:06 PM
GJC
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OK GJC i challenge you to have a go at doing it with Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson (championship fights)
OK lets do Ali:

Liston 1 and 2: Both dubious victories and a heavy suspision that Liston threw both fights also Liston was 5 years past his peak and at possibly 40 just finally aged.
Patterson: Ten years past his best
Chuvalo: Good chin but thats about it very second rate.
Cooper: Pumped up light heavy who was second division and suffered from cuts.
London: Probably as an inept a fighter who has fought for the title.
Mildenberger: 3rd division fighter who Ali struggled with.
Williams: Totally shot years past his best.
Terrell: The black Carnera. His next 2 fights were losses against the legendary Thad Spencer and Manuel Ramos
Folley: Second division always lost when he stepped up in class
Quarry: The odd decent win but always struggling when stepping up in class
Bonavena: Who? Beat tomato cans and a shot Folley
Frazier: Got beaten up
Then revisited some old opponents in between getting whupped by Norton
Foreman: Foreman fought an incredibly stupid fight possibly drugged with Dundee having loosened the ropes etc
Wepner: Need I say much?
Lyle: Got his shot by losing to little Jimmy Young
Bugner: Agression of a goldfish typical British Heavy
Frazier: Just about hung on after getting beat up by a shot Frazier
Coopman: Belgium's best!
Young: Pumped up Middle
Dunn: Contender with London as the most inept challenger ever or you could throw in Coopman etc
Norton: Ali lost
Evangelista: earned his shot by losing to the legendary Lorenzo Zenon
Shavers: Climbed up off his backside and held on
Spinks: Probably the most ludicrous challenger since Patterson defended against Rademacher and Ali lost!
Spinks: Wow Ali beat Rademacher
Holmes: The only other time bar Frazier 1 Ali meets a prime atg he gets whupped
Berbick: Another whupping.

Satisfied?
The sad thing is some will agree with this!
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#35
Old 11-05-2009, 02:33 PM
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Satisfied?
The sad thing is some will agree with this!

Oh, you are a card GJC!
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#36
Old 11-05-2009, 03:14 PM
sonnyboyx2
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Originally Posted by GJC View Post
OK lets do Ali:

Liston 1 and 2: Both dubious victories and a heavy suspision that Liston threw both fights also Liston was 5 years past his peak and at possibly 40 just finally aged.
Patterson: Ten years past his best
Chuvalo: Good chin but thats about it very second rate.
Cooper: Pumped up light heavy who was second division and suffered from cuts.
London: Probably as an inept a fighter who has fought for the title.
Mildenberger: 3rd division fighter who Ali struggled with.
Williams: Totally shot years past his best.
Terrell: The black Carnera. His next 2 fights were losses against the legendary Thad Spencer and Manuel Ramos
Folley: Second division always lost when he stepped up in class
Quarry: The odd decent win but always struggling when stepping up in class
Bonavena: Who? Beat tomato cans and a shot Folley
Frazier: Got beaten up
Then revisited some old opponents in between getting whupped by Norton
Foreman: Foreman fought an incredibly stupid fight possibly drugged with Dundee having loosened the ropes etc
Wepner: Need I say much?
Lyle: Got his shot by losing to little Jimmy Young
Bugner: Agression of a goldfish typical British Heavy
Frazier: Just about hung on after getting beat up by a shot Frazier
Coopman: Belgium's best!
Young: Pumped up Middle
Dunn: Contender with London as the most inept challenger ever or you could throw in Coopman etc
Norton: Ali lost
Evangelista: earned his shot by losing to the legendary Lorenzo Zenon
Shavers: Climbed up off his backside and held on
Spinks: Probably the most ludicrous challenger since Patterson defended against Rademacher and Ali lost!
Spinks: Wow Ali beat Rademacher
Holmes: The only other time bar Frazier 1 Ali meets a prime atg he gets whupped
Berbick: Another whupping.

Satisfied?
The sad thing is some will agree with this!
Nice try GJC yet IMO all of Alis challengers easily beat all of Lennox Lewis challengers..

1/. Frazier never fought Norton as you claim.
2/. Liston was thought by many to be a champion for life
3/. Mildenberger - very good southpaw
4/. Chuvalo - as rough & tough as they come
5/. Bonavena- again rugged two-fisted brawler who had gave Frazier 2 great battles and ranked world No2
6/. Folley- in Ali`s words,"would have been champion if not for Ali"
7/. Quarry - Voted most exciting fighter in the world 67,68 & 69 ranked world No1
8/. Norton 3 times - tough fight for anyone
9/. Lyle - `Beast`who was billed as the next Sonny Liston
10/. Patterson - incredible boxer/puncher..their 1st fight was brilliant
11/. Frazier 3 times - These 3 fights are the pyramids of boxing history.
12/. Bugner - excellent record who always held his own
13/. Williams - One of greatest KO records in boxing history.
14/. Young - many on this forum rate him highly
15/. Shavers - rated by many as hardest puncher ever.
16/. Cooper - was rated as one of Britains greatest at that time, European champ entitled to world title shot
17/. Liston clearly never threw 1st fight ive never read or heard it said so... Ali was 8/1 underdog
18/. Terrell - was WBA champion
19/. Coopman, Evangelista, Dunn - European fighters Ali fought on World Tour similar to Ray Robinson vs Turpin..
20/. Foreman - Incredible physical speciman.

How many of Muhammad Ali`s fights was FOTY ?


The 1970s was known as The Golden Era by the IBHOF yet you are rubbishing its fighters and claiming the likes of Grant, Butler, Botha, Akinwande, Mavrovic, Morrison, Tucker, Bruno, Jackson, Golota, Tua, Rahman are all superior quality to Frazier, Liston, Quarry, Norton, Young, Lyle, Bugner, Patterson, Chuvalo or Bonavena

During the 50s,60s & 70s The European Champion was entitled to a shot at the World Champion.

The biggest difference between the opponents of Muhammad Ali to the opponents of Lennox Lewis is that Ali`s opponents was at the "Top of their Game" wheras Lewis opponents was "All on the slide".... Ali fought the No1 contenders but Lewis refused to fight them so was stripped of every belt.

There is no Foreman, Sanders, Bowe, Hide, Moorer, Witherspoon, Ruiz, Byrd, Wlad, Jones jr, Holmes on the record of Lewis yet they all held World Titles during 92 to 2003 when Lewis was a Belt holder... To claim they avoided Lewis is ridiculous, the likely scenario is that they was "All at the top of their game" So Lewis avoided Them, something which can never be said of Muhammad Ali.

Last edited by sonnyboyx2; 11-05-2009 at 03:19 PM.
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#37
Old 11-05-2009, 04:58 PM
GJC
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Nice try GJC yet IMO all of Alis challengers easily beat all of Lennox Lewis challengers..
London, Dunn and Coopman would beat Tua and Vitali?

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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post

1/. Frazier never fought Norton as you claim.
Didn't actually claim that but agree I wasn't too clear I meant that between championship fights Ali re-visited a few old average opponents before next championship bout.
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
2/. Liston was thought by many to be a champion for life
Not in his 40's though which he was rapidly approaching if not in them according to some.
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
5/. Bonavena- again rugged two-fisted brawler who had gave Frazier 2 great battles and ranked world No2
7/. Quarry - Voted most exciting fighter in the world 67,68 & 69 ranked world No1
But you completely ignore rankings for Lewis's opponents?
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10/. Patterson - incredible boxer/puncher..their 1st fight was brilliant
And the date of the fight was? Patterson won the title when? Hard to prove he wasn't shot
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
16/. Cooper - was rated as one of Britains greatest at that time, European champ entitled to world title shot
A fighter who Ali cut to ribbons in the first fight and who always lost when stepping up in class. Like a list of European champions not given a world title shot?
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11/. Frazier 3 times - These 3 fights are the pyramids of boxing history.
2nd fight was pretty dull actually with a too fussy referee who nullified a lot of Frazier's work. Ali lost 1st one the other 2 were after Frazier had been slaughtered by Foreman and was never as good.
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13/. Williams - One of greatest KO records in boxing history.
And was totally shot far more than Ruddock was against Lewis.
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17/. Liston clearly never threw 1st fight ive never read or heard it said so... Ali was 8/1 underdog
psst you'll often find that the underdog wins in fixed fights thats how they make their money! The shoulder injury that he showed abosulutely no effects of in the round before? Anyone who has followed boxing has heard rumours
or peoples opinions that both Liston fights were dodgy.
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15/. Shavers - rated by many as hardest puncher ever.
Well he put Ali on his backside but didn't follow up.
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
18/. Terrell - was WBA champion
One of the first of the alphabet champions and one of the poorest.
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
3/. Mildenberger - very good southpaw
Who once beat.........?
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
4/. Chuvalo - as rough & tough as they come
Who earned 1st shot by losing to Corletti
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
6/. Folley- in Ali`s words,"would have been champion if not for Ali"
Was 36 when he fought Ali but congratulations you have found someone Brian London beat which is never easy.
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
12/. Bugner - excellent record who always held his own
And held Ali, probably as easy defences as Ali ever had Bugner just went in to survive
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
8/. Norton 3 times - tough fight for anyone
Well not for Shavers, Foreman or Cooney but he did beat Ali 3 times so you'd have to say he did ok.
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
14/. Young - many on this forum rate him highly
Only based on him "beating" Ali and a mind****ed Foreman ever see him as a MW?
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
20/. Foreman - Incredible physical speciman.
Covered that, he was drugged and Dundee cheated
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
How many of Muhammad Ali`s fights was FOTY ?
Don't know, more than Mickey Ward's?
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
During the 50s,60s & 70s The European Champion was entitled to a shot at the World Champion.
Ask GreatA for a long list of European champions who didn't get a shot as my internet is playing up.
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#38
Old 11-05-2009, 05:13 PM
GJC
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Only based on him "beating" Ali and a mind****ed Foreman ever see him as a MW?
Oops got my Jimmy's mixed up lol ignore the MW bit , you'll have to forgive me, barely keeping the Alzheimer's at bay!

Did forget Lyle too so lets do him, earned shot by losing to Jimmy Young and apart from swapping knock outs with Foreman and losing and with Shavers and winning who did he ever beat?
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#39
Old 11-05-2009, 09:44 PM
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Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying Lewis ducked anyone, I'm not saying Lewis is not a great champion. For Lewis' 2nd run as champion, he was the best heavyweight around. No doubt. I can assume Bowe ducked him, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't fight Bowe. I can't reward Lewis for fighting everyone when he didn't fight everyone, even if they ducked him. I can't say that Michael Grant for example was a big win for Lewis because at the time Grant was so highly regarded, when I know for a fact now that Grant was a product of hype and barely a boxer. It can't be ignored. It doesn't mean Lewis sucked, but it should knock him down a peg. I don't think that's unfair, and I think it is unfair to rate Lewis with Holmes, Frazier, Foreman, etc., when the quality of opponent is just not the same. What was it that RA dude said in that Floyd Mayweather "interview"? "I could fight 15 girls and go undefeated." Maybe he was just unlucky. Getting KO'd by an above average journeyman in McCall and a solid contender in Rahman hurts him too. I would do the same if Holmes had been KO'd by Renaldo Snipes or Mike Weaver.
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#40
Old 11-06-2009, 03:32 AM
sonnyboyx2
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[QUOTE=blacklodge;6548186]Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying Lewis ducked anyone, I'm not saying Lewis is not a great champion. For Lewis' 2nd run as champion, he was the best heavyweight around. No doubt. I can assume Bowe ducked him, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't fight Bowe. I can't reward Lewis for fighting everyone when he didn't fight everyone, even if they ducked him. I can't say that Michael Grant for example was a big win for Lewis because at the time Grant was so highly regarded, when I know for a fact now that Grant was a product of hype and barely a boxer. It can't be ignored. It doesn't mean Lewis sucked, but it should knock him down a peg. I don't think that's unfair, and I think it is unfair to rate Lewis with Holmes, Frazier, Foreman, etc., when the quality of opponent is just not the same. What was it that RA dude said in that Floyd Mayweather "interview"? "I could fight 15 girls and go undefeated." Maybe he was just unlucky. Getting KO'd by an above average journeyman in McCall and a solid contender in Rahman hurts him too. I would do the same if Holmes had been KO'd by Renaldo Snipes or Mike Weaver.[/QUO

well said post
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