Virgil Hill: an appreciation

[Benncollinsaad]

Perhaps I should've posted this thread here. As I already said, I'm a big fan of Virgil "Quicksilver" Hill and I think he doesn't get mentioned enough. There are scarcely any of his fights on youtube, dailymotion or any other sites. He was a great champion and a great technician and fought till he was 43, almost 44. So when some B-Hop fans are saying how there is nobody who has fought at such an age except him, I bring up Virgil's name.

I do believe a prime Virgil Hill beats a prime Bernard Hopkins. In a close fight that is. Altho Virgil may not be the best LHW or CW ever, he sure is one of the all time top 10 in both classes. His circle technique and his jab were one of the key elements of his game. He also deserves praise for being perhaps the only American champion to be willing to fight anywhere and most specifically GERMANY-the much-dreaded place for many of the most famous American fighters, including Roy Jones. He has even had success, beating the great German technician Henry Maske in '96 and taking his IBF title right in front of thousands of Germans!

He also beat the tough Frenchman Fabrice Tiozzo twice and is the only one to beat him professionally as well! First time by decision and second time by first round ko. Both times in France. He is a five time world champion and has also won a silver medal as middleweight in the '84 olympics. Yet, somehow Virgil Hill is seldom mentioned and never featured on tv as a guest before or after big matches.

[Obama]

Originally Posted by Benncollinsaad

I do believe a prime Virgil Hill beats a prime Bernard Hopkins. In a close fight that is. Altho Virgil may not be the best LHW or CW ever, he sure is one of the all time top 10 in both classes.

Now hold the **** up there. You've gone too far.

In all honesty, Virgil Hill is one of the most protected American champions of all time. The man had 11 title fights before he stepped up in opposition to fight an over-the-hill Tommy Hearns. Let me repeat that, he stepped UP in competition to fight an OVER THE HILL fighter, and he lost!

First Stint as LHW Champion:
The only reason Hill became Champion in the first place is because Marvin Johnson was washed up and lost to a man he already stopped previously. Stewart was never World Champion before that fight and was never World Champion again after. You look through Virgill's list of opponents before losing to Hearns and it's incredibly bleak. I mean without a doubt Bobby Czyz is the most credible Light Heavyweight on it. None of the other fighters aside from Bobby and Stewart ever won a World title PERIOD. And this just isn't at the time he fought them, it's over the entire length of their careers. In one of his early defenses he fights this guy named Ramzi Hassan and goes the distance with him. In Hassan's previous fight he's KOed in the last round by a man Hill should have faced instead of Hassan. His name was Tony Willis, and he was never that good but he had KO power so he was considered too dangerous for a protected fighter like Hill to fight. In Hassan's next fight after Hill, he gets KOed in 5 by the new WBO Champion Michael Moorer. With this KO Moorer increased his winning streak to 12 wins all via KO. 5 of the 11 fights Moorer had before this went 1 round, and another 5 went 2 rounds, with only 1 going 4 rounds. Would we ever get to see Moorer vs Hill? Not a chance. So the LHW career of Michael Moorer ended with 22 wins, no losses, and 22 KOs.

Second Stint as LHW Champion:
3 fights after losing to Hearns, Hill gets his WBA LHW title back in a vacant title fight. So that's 2 times he's won the title without really beating anyone of consequence for it. I mean Frank Tate was no bum, at Middleweight anyways. But this was LHW...Tate was far from a quality fighter at LHW. Tate actually having a record of once being a World Champion however enticed Hill to give the man a rematch some years later. Whoever Hill's manager was, did a DAMN good job. Enough was enough with the over-protection for the most part though, Hill finally started getting matched with recognizable names on a more regular basis. Notable wins of his second reign: Adolpho Washington, Fabrice Tiozzo, Lou Del Valle, and Henry Maske. Stylistically Hill was a problem for Fabrice (who I consider to be the better fighter of the two, something their record would support). The first win was a SD that could have gone either way, then years later Hill wins the Cruiserweight title from him via 1st round KO (lucky for Hill he caught him early). But hey, he won. Second biggest damn accomplishment of his whole career. Lou De Valle was an over rated fighter that never accomplished anything other than winning a vacant title and losing it immediately. Then there was Henry Maske...who was damn good, and nearly too good for Hill as he won yet another SD. It was Henry's first loss and it sent him into retirement. 10+ years later Henry came out of retirement for the sole purpose of beating Virgil, and he did. After the first fight with Henry, Hill would go on to lose back to back against Dariusz Michalczewski and RJJ, marking the end of his success as a Light Heavyweight. His success at Cruiserweight stems no further than what I stated earlier in the paragraph.

Main Guys Hill Avoided:
Michael Moorer
"Prince" Charles Williams
Jeff Harding
Dennis Andries
Mike McCallum

Where Hill rates in history:
Unfortunately for his fans...not remotely high. I couldn't put the man on a top 40 all time Light Heavyweight list. To do so would be a travesty of justice. He wasn't as good as the Light Heavyweights slightly before his time (Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Michael Spinks, Marvin Johnson, Dwight Muhammad Qawi), he wasn't as good as some of the Light Heavyweights during his time (Michael Moorer, Charles Williams), and he wasn't as good as the Light Heavyweights after his time either (RJJ, and soon to come Chad Dawson). 30 years of history sampled, 9 guys to rate over him at LHW in that time alone. How he makes any LHW top 10 list is completely beyond me.

[Benncollinsaad]

Now wait just a second! You didn't mention James Kinchen, who Hearns had a very hard time beating and who knocked Hearns down once. Virgil beat him by 1st round KO! Lucky? I doubt it. He was that good. He was no power puncher but he could knock out guys that weren't so easy to knock out because of his skill. He knew just when to hit and where. As you already said he also beat Czyz, who was a dangerous puncher with good boxing skills.

Why he didn't fight Williams or Moorer I don't know. Can it be that they weren't so keen on fighting him either?! He had a reputation to be hard to figure out and tough to beat. Even Hearns had problems with his style. Hearns won that fight by 2 points imo. At least one judge also saw it that way. I mean surely THAT must be a proof that Hill was no fluke. Even RJ had problems with him before he found the right spot in round 4. He said he couldn't get to him anywhere else so he had to go to the body. Another proof of his defensive and technical abilities.

I am really sick and tired of naysayers like you questioning a great fighter and a great guy like Virgil. Forgive me but it seems to me that non-black fighters get their legacy questioned more often than black fighters. In America, that is. Even Oscar DLH is. In the meantime, a guy like Bernard Hopkins is automatically branded an ATG, a legend. That aint fair.

[Obama]

Originally Posted by Benncollinsaad

Now wait just a second! You didn't mention James Kinchen, who Hearns had a very hard time beating and who knocked Hearns down once. Virgil beat him by 1st round KO! Lucky? I doubt it. He was that good. He was no power puncher but he could knock out guys that weren't so easy to knock out because of his skill. He knew just when to hit and where. As you already said he also beat Czyz, who was a dangerous puncher with good boxing skills.

Why he didn't fight Williams or Moorer I don't know. Can it be that they weren't so keen on fighting him either?! He had a reputation to be hard to figure out and tough to beat. Even Hearns had problems with his style. Hearns won that fight by 2 points imo. At least one judge also saw it that way. I mean surely THAT must be a proof that Hill was no fluke. Even RJ had problems with him before he found the right spot in round 4. He said he couldn't get to him anywhere else so he had to go to the body. Another proof of his defensive and technical abilities.

I am really sick and tired of naysayers like you questioning a great fighter and a great guy like Virgil. Forgive me but it seems to me that non-black fighters get their legacy questioned more often than black fighters. In America, that is. Even Oscar DLH is. In the meantime, a guy like Bernard Hopkins is automatically branded an ATG, a legend. That aint fair.

I always thought Hill was at least part Black...but w/e.

Bernard proved himself for 20 years ducking no one. Hill protected himself for 10, then when he wasn't protected proved to be mediocre.

Who exactly did James Kinchen beat to be a credible fighter? Almost winning one time ain't good enough. The only reason he almost won against Hearns was because of what I said, the man was flat out over the hill. Hill was a BETTER fighter than Hearns at the time they met, but simply lost head to head because Hearns was motivated and beat him on the experience gap, which wouldn't have been there if they didn't protect the kid so much. They fed him tomato cans to make him look special. The same thing was done with RJJ, but at least when he fought washed up fighters (McCallum, R. Johnson, Pazienza) he got the job done.

And no...Moorer and Williams did not avoid Hill. They wanted him more than anyone else in the LHW division.

[Benncollinsaad]

Originally Posted by Obama

I always thought Hill was at least part Black...but w/e.

Bernard proved himself for 20 years ducking no one. Hill protected himself for 10, then when he wasn't protected proved to be mediocre.

Who exactly did James Kinchen beat to be a credible fighter? Almost winning one time ain't good enough. The only reason he almost won against Hearns was because of what I said, the man was flat out over the hill. Hill was a BETTER fighter than Hearns at the time they met, but simply lost head to head because Hearns was motivated and beat him on the experience gap, which wouldn't have been there if they didn't protect the kid so much. They fed him tomato cans to make him look special. The same thing was done with RJJ, but at least when he fought washed up fighters (McCallum, R. Johnson, Pazienza) he got the job done.

And no...Moorer and Williams did not avoid Hill. They wanted him more than anyone else in the LHW division.

Hearns over the hill in '88?? Gee, I don't think so!

[lyrical]

Remember when Jones stopped dat boy with a body shot??? LOL

[Benncollinsaad]

Originally Posted by lyrical

Remember when Jones stopped dat boy with a body shot??? LOL

I don't like you. You look like a pissant. So do me a favor and piss off!

[TheGreatA]

To be honest I don't think the man could be rated among the top 10 in any credible LHW list. Just too many greats in that weight class.

He was a very good boxer and had a good run, losing to the best fighters he fought but beating just about everyone else.

[Benncollinsaad]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

To be honest I don't think the man could be rated among the top 10 in any credible LHW list. Just too many greats in that weight class.

He was a very good boxer and had a good run, losing to the best fighters he fought but beating just about everyone else.

He lost to Hearns, Michalczewski and Jones as a LHW. The Jones fight wasn't even at LHW, it was more a CW catchweight. The first two losses were in decisions that were quite close, especially the first one.