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#21
Old 04-12-2009, 07:02 PM
Southpaw16BF
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Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
Ayala Jr did not beat a single top 10 ranked opponent aside from Carlos Herrera who for whatever reason was still ranked despite having no wins over top opposition and a recent KO loss to an unheralded opponent.

Rosario was number 3 because of the Ring Magazine's questionable decision to rate Aaron Pryor as the number 1 contender at lightweight despite Pryor fighting at 140 lbs.

Both were rated very highly due to their potential and because of what everyone thought they would go on to achieve. In the end Ayala Jr went to prison and Rosario went onto have a good career, although not as good as people thought he would have because of his drug abuse.

Ayala Jr was far from the greatest prospect in boxing history when he was no better than Rosario in his own time.
Actually after the Ayala defeat, Carlos Herrera went undefeated for the next 3 years and in those wins defeated decent fellow South American Alfredo Ruben Lucero stopping him in 8.

You say Ayala Jr was far from the greatest Prospect like this is fact. Many people beside myself also think this including Promoter Bob Arum and legendary trainer Angelo Dundee. Both said he had the potential to be perhaps one of boxing's greatest fighters.

And you also say Ayala had only beaten one fighter in the rating. Well Mike McCallum was rated number #10 and had defeated no one in the rating, the same goes for Gary Guiden, and Charlie Weir two others who hand't beat no one in the rating at that time.

You also always never mention how at 14 years of age he got the better of current WBA Welterweight Champion in Pipeno Cuevas, when no would spar Cuevas as he was known for breaking bones and knocking good fighters out in sparring. After the spar Cuevas called Ayala incredible. Now thats a specail fighter in my mind.
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#22
Old 04-12-2009, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf View Post
Actually after the Ayala defeat, Carlos Herrera went undefeated for the next 3 years and in those wins defeated decent fellow South American Alfredo Ruben Lucero stopping him in 8.
He went undefeated for 3 years because he retired for 3 years and came back in 1985, beating padded up Argentinean competition and losing 3 times by KO.

Quote:
You say Ayala Jr was far from the greatest Prospect like this is fact. Many people beside myself also think this including Promoter Bob Arum and legendary trainer Angelo Dundee. Both said he had the potential to be perhaps one of boxing's greatest fighters.
Bob Arum isn't exactly a good source to use. Like the old saying goes, if Bob Arum told me the sky was blue I'd look up and see it for sure.

Dundee bought into the Ayala Jr hype as did D'Amato to the Rosario hype. The fact is that there have been much better prospects in history.

Quote:
And you also say Ayala had only beaten one fighter in the rating. Well Mike McCallum was rated number #10 and had defeated no one in the rating, the same goes for Gary Guiden, and Charlie Weir two others who hand't beat no one in the rating at that time.
Charlie Weir beat a lot of people that Ayala Jr did and did it more impressively. He KO'd Gregory before Ayala did, KO'd Nicanar Camacho whom Ayala Jr went the distance with, KO'd Cheatham in 3 (Ayala did it in 6).

He also had wins over middleweights Mike Colbert and Kevin Finnegan who gave Marvin Hagler some of his toughest fights. Despite this he was only ranked number 6 while Ayala was number 2.

Mike McCallum beat a former champion Ayub Kalule in 1982 yet he was still not rated above Ayala Jr.

Quote:
You also always never mention how at 14 years of age he got the better of current WBA Welterweight Champion in Pipeno Cuevas, when no would spar Cuevas as he was known for breaking bones and knocking good fighters out in sparring. After the spar Cuevas called Ayala incredible. Now thats a specail fighter in my mind.
Those were only rumours. Cuevas was no more than 17-18 years old himself when he was knocking out world champions.

Last edited by TheManchine; 04-12-2009 at 07:29 PM.
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#23
Old 04-12-2009, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
He went undefeated for 3 years because he retired for 3 years and came back in 1985, beating padded up Argentinean competition and losing 3 times by KO.



Bob Arum isn't exactly a good source to use. Like the old saying goes, if Bob Arum told me the sky was blue I'd look up and see it for sure.

Dundee bought into the Ayala Jr hype as did D'Amato to the Rosario hype. The fact is that there have been much better prospects in history.



Charlie Weir beat a lot of people that Ayala Jr did and did it more impressively. He KO'd Gregory before Ayala did, KO'd Nicanar Camacho whom Ayala Jr went the distance with, KO'd Cheatham in 3 (Ayala did it in 6).

He also had wins over middleweights Mike Colbert and Kevin Finnegan who gave Marvin Hagler some of his toughest fights. Despite this he was only ranked number 6 while Ayala was number 2.

Mike McCallum beat a former champion Ayub Kalule in 1982 yet he was still not rated above Ayala Jr.



Those were only rumours. Cuevas was no more than 17-18 years old himself when he was knocking out world champions.
.Bob Arum may make alot of hype up (as all promoters do) but he still been in the game a pretty long time and knows boxing rather well.

.And a comment coming from Dundee like that is pretty impressive, when he has been around and trained fighters like Ali, Leonard, Napoles etc.

.You say the Ayala/Cuevas Spar was only rumous, this is no rumour and is a true story, and Cuevas was 20 years of age and was on his 4th defence of his WBA Welterweight Title and was one of the best Welterweights in the world and Pound 4 Pound one of the hardest hitters in boxing.

.And the Rating i posted up were from Sep 82, and Mike McCallum defeated Ayub Kalule in Nov 82 a month after.
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#24
Old 04-12-2009, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf View Post
.You say the Ayala/Cuevas Spar was only rumous, this is no rumour and is a true story, and Cuevas was 20 years of age and was on his 4th defence of his WBA Welterweight Title and was one of the best Welterweights in the world and Pound 4 Pound one of the hardest hitters in boxing.

.And the Rating i posted up were from Sep 82, and Mike McCallum defeated Ayub Kalule in Nov 82 a month after.
I've only heard rumours about it. I'd like to hear something from Ayala or Cuevas themselves to decide whether it was true or not. I've also heard that Mosley used to beat up on the best Mexican fighters in sparring since he was a kid.

In the end of the year ratings Ayala Jr was number 2 while McCallum was number 5.
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#25
Old 04-12-2009, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
I've only heard rumours about it. I'd like to hear something from Ayala or Cuevas themselves to decide whether it was true or not. I've also heard that Mosley used to beat up on the best Mexican fighters in sparring since he was a kid.

In the end of the year ratings Ayala Jr was number 2 while McCallum was number 5.
Well Cuevas's manager quoted Cuevas as saying ''Incredible'' about Ayala, there were also alot of people watching the spar aswell.

Hmmm.... you say Mosely beat up on Mexican fighters. Were these fighters Dominant World Champions, Top 3 in their weight division and feared punchers like Cuevas was??????

Another reason why Ring Magzine may have Ayala higher was because he was also pretty avoided in the 154 division, and was struggling to get fights that would move him up the rating.

Before he went to jail, he did however have fights with Roberto Duran and Davey Moore on the table.
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#26
Old 04-12-2009, 08:25 PM
TheGreatA
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To a great poster!! - abosworth great poster. - Melly-Mel For finding the Guzman stream, when nobody else could. - The_Bringer Just wanted to keep the pattern going Machine - danc1984 One of NSBs best contributors - BostonGuy 
7000 posts, congrats!! - JAB5239 To the LinkMaster! - S a m u r a i Respects to a great poster - Gift Of Gab Props on the picture! :lol1: - Spacey1991 Jussi Jääskeläinen - ЯiZО 
For Busting Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 To Celebrate The Exposure Of Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 thanks for the lesson! - mellow_mood This gift is for the videos you posted on my Tyson/Patterson thread a while back.  I recently noticed you posted some great interview videos of Patterson on the thread which I missed at the time because I didn’t follow up on checking the responses. - Benny Leonard For doing a great Glen Johnson highlight video! - St Lion 
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Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf View Post
Well Cuevas's manager quoted Cuevas as saying ''Incredible'' about Ayala, there were also alot of people watching the spar aswell.

Hmmm.... you say Mosely beat up on Mexican fighters. Were these fighters Dominant World Champions, Top 3 in their weight division and feared punchers like Cuevas was??????

Another reason why Ring Magzine may have Ayala higher was because he was also pretty avoided in the 154 division, and was struggling to get fights that would move him up the rating.

Before he went to jail, he did however have fights with Roberto Duran and Davey Moore on the table.
Well, there were rumours of him handling Julio Cesar Chavez... Mosley talked about it in interviews before the fight with Margarito.

He also broke Genaro Hernandez's nose.



In the end it's just sparring.
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#27
Old 04-12-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
Well, there were rumours of him handling Julio Cesar Chavez... Mosley talked about it in interviews before the fight with Margarito.

He also broke Genaro Hernandez's nose.



In the end it's just sparring.
Well actually De La Hoya claimed that Chavez invited him for a meal after their sparring session, to tell him your going to be something specail. But never invited Mosely, and De La Hoya was made to wear bigger ounce glove's than Mosely and the other sparring parthers.

And Mosely never really had the ''better'' of Chavez, and it ain't the stuff of legends like the Ayala/Cuevas stroy is. Cuevas was going full out, and still cound't handle the 14 year old Ayala.

And you say its just sparring, well to be onest some sparring can be like real fights, the name for them are ''Gym Fights'' and can get just as heated as a real prizefight could. Have you had the experince of sparring????

Last edited by .SOUTHPAW16BF.; 08-19-2009 at 12:31 AM.
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