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#41
Old 02-28-2009, 04:26 PM
Mizzou
 
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[QUOTE=squealpiggy;4832735]

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People still are not spending. Cutting tax rates isn't going to make the public buy American. It isn't going to save peoples' houses. It isn't going to stop the slide.
You are correct in saying cutting tax rates will not encourage people to buy American, but it does encourage people to buy. It also assuages the wealthy, whose spending powers the economy. Cutting taxes won't have an impact next week, but it does impact psyche. Obama is upping the top tax bracket from 35 to 40 percent, and the one below it from 33 to 36 percent. He proposes slashing the deduction on charitable contributions from 35 cents on the dollar to 28 cents per dollar. He is increasing payroll taxes. The top 1% will see their taxes increase by almost 20 percent(I can break this down).

This is a personal paradox for me. I don't like blatant materialism or the culture/opulent lifestyle of the rich. However, I realize the macro-economic necessity of this group. They provide the majority of tax revenue, and that trumps my own disdain for the way many of them live their lives. Adding to that, some wealthy people are philanthropists who do a lot of good with their money.

My main point is, how do you think this group of people will react to having their taxes raised tremendously in a beyond ****ty economy? Do you think it encourages them to invest and spend?

Quote:
Besides which, if you slash the tax rate what happens to the existing deficit? What happens to the US war effort?
It depends how you slash it. The 400 dollar tax kickback for "working class" people that will be received in April is quite similar to the 600 dollar Bush stimulus check from last year. There was no salient effect from the latter.
The US war effort will go on regardless. Since Obama is pulling all troops out of Iraq by 2011, one would assume that the money needed for war efforts will decrease. I believe he will cut the military budget as well.

Quote:
The best form of stimulus at this point in time is engaging in overdue public works type spending. It needs to create jobs and get the economy moving.
I won't get tit for tat here, but filtering money through a giant albatross is not always efficient. Most of this bill went to refill/expand the coffers of existing government programs. Every once of welfare reform achieved in 1996 under Clinton is reversed. States will now have an incentive to take on more caseloads, because there is a direct correlation between the amount of people on welfare and amount of funding a state gets. 46 billion of the bill is noted for infrastructure, this is what I think you mean by "public works" spending, but that definition is so vague that you could mean the entire 792 billion dollar bill.

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The banks need protecting. The auto industry is difficult because it is part of so many adjacent industries so there's an argument to be made for keeping it ticking along, though that makes me very uncomfortable.
The issue of bailing out banks is tricky. If you let them fail, other banks would suck them up. The idea of the initial bank bailout under Bush was so that we would not have a credit crisis during a recession. I know there is lots of talk of "nationalizing" banks. The administration has been using different terms to avoid frightening an American public who has an inherit fear of this.

GM and Chrysler need to go Chapter 11. They are already asking for more funds than what they received from a departing president Bush. The notion that the American Auto Industry will just up and vanish is rubbish. What will happen is the union contracts will be broken, and the revamped company will hire back the old/new workers under more reasonable terms. Let's not forget that Japanese and German companies have stayed afloat in the same market, and Ford has not taken/asked for bailout money.
Quote:
Beyond that I would suggest that building transit systems and new roadways as well as repairing the the things you already have will create skilled jobs paying well and will also be of benefit in the long run.
There is 46 billion dollars alloted for infrastructure in the stimulus bill, around 4 percent of the entire bill.

Quote:
Expanding public healthcare will also create jobs and be of long term benefit.
Most everyone agrees that universal insurance is needed. The majority still do not want a government run system. Besides the ethical issue of universal care, it drives up costs to have uninsured people flooding the E.R. They could be taking ideas from both sides of the isle. Legislation should be passed capping medical malpractice lawsuits, allowing businesses to pool their money together to lessen costs, eliminate laws which bar interstate purchases when there is a price difference in treatement. The goverment could also step in and force private insurers to open coverage to the poor.

Obama is pledging 634 billion dollars over ten years to fund medicaid. If we are going to spend this type of money, make sure the program is efficient and works.
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#42
Old 02-28-2009, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou View Post
You obviously haven't been paying much attention to what's going on. It's not like Obama has been pulling pud in the oval office. He pushed through the largest spending bill ever. I won't even debate the dynamics of it.

If you can't see that it is risky business to venture into the type of national debt that we are going into, you are a homer, plain and simple.
I get what your saying, and it is risky no doubt about that. I would rather Obama and his team take more time before making all these bold moves. If it works out he will be praised as the greatest president of modern times, but if it fails and the situation gets worse Obama's name will forever be tainted. I hope it works out, but to say I'm not worried is as far from the truth as you can get.
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#43
Old 02-28-2009, 05:07 PM
!! Shawn
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[QUOTE=Mizzou;4833048]
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
This is a personal paradox for me. I don't like blatant materialism or the culture/opulent lifestyle of the rich. However, I realize the macro-economic necessity of this group. They provide the majority of tax revenue, and that trumps my own disdain for the way many of them live their lives. Adding to that, some wealthy people are philanthropists who do a lot of good with their money.
Perhaps the worst thing Obama has proposed, is making charitable donations non-deductible.

Most people that give, can afford to give because it is tax deductible, this will virtually destroy every form of charitable organization in the country.
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#44
Old 02-28-2009, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Vladimir303 View Post
I believe Obama has explained himself on this and even went around the country for town hall meetings selling the Package.

Republicans like to say it's a spending bill and Obama countered saying of course it's a spending bill but one that will stimulate the economy.

How laughable it is, that now that there is a democrat as president, the republican congressmen want to talk about fiscal responsibility??

They oversaw the biggest expansion in government debt in history, and didn't say a single word. Now Obama talks about implementing healthcare reform, and rebuilding the country's infrastructure...and they remebered their "conservative principles".


In previous years under the former spender in chief, the costs associated with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and related things were NOT presented in the budget, and thus, their "projected deficits" were always, purposely underestimated.

......The above is the exact same cut and paste post you have used in three other threads. Nothing you say is original or self generated. The stimulus package is a welfare bill. The economy will not recover in 12-15 months or anything remotely resembling that. Clinton is taking his own advice and not giving a doom and gloom prediction from Mr. "yes we can", or um, "maybe we can't" now that I'm elected. Just STFU!!!!
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#45
Old 02-28-2009, 05:32 PM
!! Shawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
People still are not spending. Cutting tax rates isn't going to make the public buy American. It isn't going to save peoples' houses. It isn't going to stop the slide. Besides which, if you slash the tax rate what happens to the existing deficit? What happens to the US war effort?
This is where liberals and conservatives differ significantly in opinion. Peoples houses do not need saving. The people losing their houses are losing their houses because they were irresponsible.

I believe that if you make a mistake, the burden is on you to deal with the consequences. These are not responsible people losing their houses, they are people that got into houses that they couldn't afford in the first place. If we were talking about a different asset, you would see how stupid the idea is.

Say for example we were talking about cars. All the sudden there was an explosion of people having their cars repossessed. Hard working middle class Americans that can't make the payment. They deserve a helping hand right?

Well what if I told you that the people losing their cars were the people that bought a top of the line Mercedes when all they could afford was a Honda Civic, still think we should help them keep their car?

What if they could only afford a used Civic and they decided to get a Porsche 911? Still think we should help them keep their car?

These are the same kinds of people that are losing their houses. The people that made bad decisions, that any rational person would have questioned when they made them.

Quote:
The best form of stimulus at this point in time is engaging in overdue public works type spending. It needs to create jobs and get the economy moving.

The banks need protecting. The auto industry is difficult because it is part of so many adjacent industries so there's an argument to be made for keeping it ticking along, though that makes me very uncomfortable.
Keeping an industry on life support is perhaps the most dangerous thing you can do for the economy. By keeping them alive, you are depriving the savable companies from getting their "organs".

Not every company will fail. Some will, the others will take up the slack and take advantage of the increased market share they gain. By keep the stragglers alive, you are hurting the viable companies, and preventing them from thriving and driving forth recovery.

Quote:
Beyond that I would suggest that building transit systems and new roadways as well as repairing the the things you already have will create skilled jobs paying well and will also be of benefit in the long run.

Expanding public healthcare will also create jobs and be of long term benefit.
If you take an existing industry, and suggest that socializing it will create jobs, that is only because you are increasing inefficiency, and thus increasing cost.
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#46
Old 02-28-2009, 05:35 PM
!! Shawn
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Originally Posted by street bully View Post
I get what your saying, and it is risky no doubt about that. I would rather Obama and his team take more time before making all these bold moves. If it works out he will be praised as the greatest president of modern times, but if it fails and the situation gets worse Obama's name will forever be tainted. I hope it works out, but to say I'm not worried is as far from the truth as you can get.
Best case scenario, it works like a charm... we are still left was an absolutely astronomical level debt.
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#47
Old 02-28-2009, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Vladimir303 View Post
McCain was a old war hawk and would've continued to spend millions in Iraq if he had it his way. Of course the countless spending on Iraq doesn't count in the budget.

But Obama has changed all that.

Spending money on this countries infastructure, healthcare reform, education and energy is spending according to McCain and the Republicans BUT spending money rebuilding another country (Iraq) according to them is PATRIOTIC.

Go figure.

...This Vladimir guy has no ****ing clue what he's talking about and it should be obvious at this point. BTW, Obama just announced that he wanted to keep troops in Iraq through 2011. The Dems don't agree with him on that one bit.
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#48
Old 02-28-2009, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by VERSATILE2K9 View Post
Dude hasn't even been a president for 2 months. Calm the fu.ck down and see what's going to happen.
Yeah , but he already has more money running down the pike than Bush did almost in the last 8 years combined, that is why everyone is so hasty.

Last edited by res; 02-28-2009 at 05:55 PM..
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#49
Old 02-28-2009, 05:53 PM
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[QUOTE=!! Shawn;4833253]
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Originally Posted by Mizzou View Post

Perhaps the worst thing Obama has proposed, is making charitable donations non-deductible.

Most people that give, can afford to give because it is tax deductible, this will virtually destroy every form of charitable organization in the country.
He did?!
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#50
Old 02-28-2009, 06:22 PM
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I did hear something about the charities taking a hit. Apparently he sees charities as a tax loophole. What a buffoon.
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