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#1
Old 02-04-2013, 05:49 AM
Augustane
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Default Pacquiao's Catchweight Criticism

A lot of people give Pacquiao criticism for his catchweights in the welterweight division, but I honestly feel that this is only because we've put him on such a pedestal. We fight fans have given Manny a Superman-like status against any welterweight that isn't Floyd Mayweather. That's the Pacquiao we all know now, the one that's been comfortably fighting at 147 for several years. We don't remember that Pacquiao, when fighting those catchweights, was still the David against the Goliaths of the welterweight division.

To put things into perspective, I want to give you a list of weight classes and how long Manny Pacquiao spent in them.

Flyweight 108-112 - 4 years
Bantamweight 118-122 - 4 years
Featherweight 126-130 - 5 years


~
Lightweight 135 - One fight [2008]
Welterweight 147 - One fight [Six months later]
Light Welterweight 140 - [Six months later]
Welterweight 145 - [Six months later]
Welterweight 147 - [Four months later]*
Light Middleweight 150 - [Eight months later]**
~

Welterweight 147 - 2011
Welterweight 144 - 2011***
Welterweight 147 - 2012
Welterweight 147 - 2012



* Clottey weighed ~165, while Pacquiao weighed 150~ on fight night.
** Margarito weighed 168, while Pacquiao weighed 151 on fight night.
*** Pacquiao fought Marquez at a catchweight of 144.
~ This entire segment occurred in two years.


My point is that Pacquiao skipped an entire lightweight division and jumped headfirst into the welterweight division. While we all complain of him draining fighters now, we fail to realize that he was still growing into the division and was a very small fighter at the time. The reasons for catchweights were legitimate. While Pacquiao had 3-5 years to develop into his other weight classes, he jumped two of them in two fights, then proceeded to battle welterweight and light middleweight giants.

It was only after Pacquiao blazed through the division, that we've found flaws and say that these fighters were drained. Realistically at the time these fights were made, it was reasonable to say that these catchweights leveled the playing field enough for these classic fights to have been made. When you remember that Clottey, De La Hoya, and Margarito fought a fighter fresh out of featherweight and outweighed him by 15-18 lbs, you have to give credit where it's due.

Lastly, I've seen many people complain that Pacquiao forced Marquez up in weight. You need to remember that Mayweather did the same thing, setting the fight at 147 and coming in overweight. Pacquiao did fight at a 144lb catchweight and came in weighing even less than Marquez on fight night. Pacquiao and Marquez are in reality, much closer in weight than many would think.

I just feel that Pacquiao's achievements have lost their luster recently due to allegations of catchweights. I feel like it's only right to shed a little bit of perspective onto the subject. I don't expect to change any minds.



TL;DR: Pacquiao had 3-5 years to adjust to weights from flyweight up to featherweight. His jump from 130 to 135 to 147 was a matter of one year. He then jumped to 154 in the next year. It's not ridiculous to say that the catchweights had some genuine legitimacy.

Last edited by Augustane; 02-04-2013 at 05:52 AM.
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#2
Old 02-04-2013, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustane View Post
A lot of people give Pacquiao criticism for his catchweights in the welterweight division, but I honestly feel that this is only because we've put him on such a pedestal. We fight fans have given Manny a Superman-like status against any welterweight that isn't Floyd Mayweather. That's the Pacquiao we all know now, the one that's been comfortably fighting at 147 for several years. We don't remember that Pacquiao, when fighting those catchweights, was still the David against the Goliaths of the welterweight division.

To put things into perspective, I want to give you a list of weight classes and how long Manny Pacquiao spent in them.

Flyweight 108-112 - 4 years
Bantamweight 118-122 - 4 years
Featherweight 126-130 - 5 years


~
Lightweight 135 - One fight [2008]
Welterweight 147 - One fight [Six months later]
Light Welterweight 140 - [Six months later]
Welterweight 145 - [Six months later]
Welterweight 147 - [Four months later]*
Light Middleweight 150 - [Eight months later]**
~

Welterweight 147 - 2011
Welterweight 144 - 2011***
Welterweight 147 - 2012
Welterweight 147 - 2012



* Clottey weighed ~165, while Pacquiao weighed 150~ on fight night.
** Margarito weighed 168, while Pacquiao weighed 151 on fight night.
*** Pacquiao fought Marquez at a catchweight of 144.
~ This entire segment occurred in two years.


My point is that Pacquiao skipped an entire lightweight division and jumped headfirst into the welterweight division. While we all complain of him draining fighters now, we fail to realize that he was still growing into the division and was a very small fighter at the time. The reasons for catchweights were legitimate. While Pacquiao had 3-5 years to develop into his other weight classes, he jumped two of them in two fights, then proceeded to battle welterweight and light middleweight giants.

It was only after Pacquiao blazed through the division, that we've found flaws and say that these fighters were drained. Realistically at the time these fights were made, it was reasonable to say that these catchweights leveled the playing field enough for these classic fights to have been made. When you remember that Clottey, De La Hoya, and Margarito fought a fighter fresh out of featherweight and outweighed him by 15-18 lbs, you have to give credit where it's due.

Lastly, I've seen many people complain that Pacquiao forced Marquez up in weight. You need to remember that Mayweather did the same thing, setting the fight at 147 and coming in overweight. Pacquiao did fight at a 144lb catchweight and came in weighing even less than Marquez on fight night. Pacquiao and Marquez are in reality, much closer in weight than many would think.

I just feel that Pacquiao's achievements have lost their luster recently due to allegations of catchweights. I feel like it's only right to shed a little bit of perspective onto the subject. I don't expect to change any minds.



TL;DR: Pacquiao had 3-5 years to adjust to weights from flyweight up to featherweight. His jump from 130 to 135 to 147 was a matter of one year. He then jumped to 154 in the next year. It's not ridiculous to say that the catchweights had some genuine legitimacy.
Wow, this topic has never been brought up before.



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#3
Old 02-04-2013, 05:57 AM
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Tbh the only people who bitch and moan about Pacquiao's CW fights are Floyd fanboys and that's only because they feel the need to have to look for something to ***** and moan about when it comes to him.
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#4
Old 02-04-2013, 06:45 AM
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Who gives a **** really? Whats done is done. Cant change the past.
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#5
Old 02-04-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustane View Post
A lot of people give Pacquiao criticism for his catchweights in the welterweight division, but I honestly feel that this is only because we've put him on such a pedestal. We fight fans have given Manny a Superman-like status against any welterweight that isn't Floyd Mayweather. That's the Pacquiao we all know now, the one that's been comfortably fighting at 147 for several years. We don't remember that Pacquiao, when fighting those catchweights, was still the David against the Goliaths of the welterweight division.

To put things into perspective, I want to give you a list of weight classes and how long Manny Pacquiao spent in them.

Flyweight 108-112 - 4 years
Bantamweight 118-122 - 4 years
Featherweight 126-130 - 5 years


~
Lightweight 135 - One fight [2008]
Welterweight 147 - One fight [Six months later]
Light Welterweight 140 - [Six months later]
Welterweight 145 - [Six months later]
Welterweight 147 - [Four months later]*
Light Middleweight 150 - [Eight months later]**
~

Welterweight 147 - 2011
Welterweight 144 - 2011***
Welterweight 147 - 2012
Welterweight 147 - 2012



* Clottey weighed ~165, while Pacquiao weighed 150~ on fight night.
** Margarito weighed 168, while Pacquiao weighed 151 on fight night.
*** Pacquiao fought Marquez at a catchweight of 144.
~ This entire segment occurred in two years.


My point is that Pacquiao skipped an entire lightweight division and jumped headfirst into the welterweight division. While we all complain of him draining fighters now, we fail to realize that he was still growing into the division and was a very small fighter at the time. The reasons for catchweights were legitimate. While Pacquiao had 3-5 years to develop into his other weight classes, he jumped two of them in two fights, then proceeded to battle welterweight and light middleweight giants.

It was only after Pacquiao blazed through the division, that we've found flaws and say that these fighters were drained. Realistically at the time these fights were made, it was reasonable to say that these catchweights leveled the playing field enough for these classic fights to have been made. When you remember that Clottey, De La Hoya, and Margarito fought a fighter fresh out of featherweight and outweighed him by 15-18 lbs, you have to give credit where it's due.

Lastly, I've seen many people complain that Pacquiao forced Marquez up in weight. You need to remember that Mayweather did the same thing, setting the fight at 147 and coming in overweight. Pacquiao did fight at a 144lb catchweight and came in weighing even less than Marquez on fight night. Pacquiao and Marquez are in reality, much closer in weight than many would think.

I just feel that Pacquiao's achievements have lost their luster recently due to allegations of catchweights. I feel like it's only right to shed a little bit of perspective onto the subject. I don't expect to change any minds.



TL;DR: Pacquiao had 3-5 years to adjust to weights from flyweight up to featherweight. His jump from 130 to 135 to 147 was a matter of one year. He then jumped to 154 in the next year. It's not ridiculous to say that the catchweights had some genuine legitimacy.
Excellent Points made...to help further the sucspicion that Emmanuel Pacquiao was in fact using PED's and or HGH. Great job.
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#6
Old 02-04-2013, 07:21 AM
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[QUOTE=Augustane;12992137]A lot of people give Pacquiao criticism for his catchweights in the welterweight division, but I honestly feel that this is only because we've put him on such a pedestal. We fight fans have given Manny a Superman-like status against any welterweight that isn't Floyd Mayweather. That's the Pacquiao we all know now, the one that's been comfortably fighting at 147 for several years. We don't remember that Pacquiao, when fighting those catchweights, was still the David against the Goliaths of the welterweight division.

To put things into perspective, I want to give you a list of weight classes and how long Manny Pacquiao spent in them.

Flyweight 108-112 - 4 years
Bantamweight 118-122 - 4 years
Featherweight 126-130 - 5 years


~
Lightweight 135 - One fight [2008]
Welterweight 147 - One fight [Six months later]
Light Welterweight 140 - [Six months later]
Welterweight 145 - [Six months later]
Welterweight 147 - [Four months later]*
Light Middleweight 150 - [Eight months later]**
~

Welterweight 147 - 2011
Welterweight 144 - 2011***
Welterweight 147 - 2012
Welterweight 147 - 2012



* Clottey weighed ~165, while Pacquiao weighed 150~ on fight night.
** Margarito weighed 168, while Pacquiao weighed 151 on fight night.
*** Pacquiao fought Marquez at a catchweight of 144.
~ This entire segment occurred in two years.



Yea but how much did they weight at the weight in?? Doesn't it affect the body to rapidly lose weight than gain it again a day before the fight??
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HazeAnatomy View Post
Excellent Points made...to help further the sucspicion that Emmanuel Pacquiao was in fact using PED's and or HGH. Great job.
True
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#8
Old 02-04-2013, 07:22 AM
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Pac is FOTD so jealous people will only talk about either CWs or Pac being Koed by JMM thats all that matters to them. Its almost a relief Pac got koed at least Floyd fans have something to talk about other than CWs as an excuse.

Only thing wrong with the CWs is that pac really didnt need them, and whether they actually benefitted him is debateable. So you can call Pac an idiot that would be fair.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HazeAnatomy View Post
Excellent Points made...to help further the sucspicion that Emmanuel Pacquiao was in fact using PED's and or HGH. Great job.
Was Henry Armstrong on the juice, too?
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~BoZz~ View Post
Yea but how much did they weight at the weight in?? Doesn't it affect the body to rapidly lose weight than gain it again a day before the fight??
If you want to talk about official weigh ins, then I want to ask:

Doesn't most of the board give Martinez credit for dominating, and surviving the 12th round, against a severely weight-drained Chavez Jr? Didn't many agree it was a risk, because Chavez bloated up to Cruiserweight? It's argued that Chavez Jr. doesn't even belong at Middleweight and should move up 8lbs to the Super Middleweight division.

In that case, shouldn't we give Pacquiao credit for defeating Welterweights, with a difference of 2 lbs (Cotto) and 4lbs (Margarito)? Especially when Margarito, Clottey, and De La Hoya ended up bloating to Middleweight on fight night?

I don't see anybody trying to defend Chavez Jr or discrediting Martinez's performance.
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