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#111
Old 01-16-2013, 07:35 AM
Augustane
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The thing about Floyd is that: you hurt your hands more than you hurt his shoulder and elbow defense. You'll have broken knuckles and wrists if you try to go at that all day. I know for a fact, I've injured my knuckles throwing at an elbow.

The dude's like a snapping turtle in a shell, man.
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#112
Old 01-16-2013, 08:06 AM
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Feinting and jabbing is the key to beating the shoulder roll.
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#113
Old 01-16-2013, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dunn View Post
Good points. That said out of 36 rounds in total in the worst case floyd won 23 of 36 (5-7 castillo 1, 10-2 castillo 2 and 8-4 cotto) and in the best case he won 28 of 36 (8-4 castillo 1, 11-1 castillo 2 and 9-3 cotto).

SO i don't know how effective they were, respectfully!
Well I thought Castillo won the first fight but Mayweather adjusted in the second fight obviously.

Cotto lost 8 rounds at least but I think the jab from a right handed stance inside really gave Mayweather problems at times. Now we are talking about one of the best fighters of all time in Mayweather and there are plenty of fighter who try and fight like him that can't pull it off.

That's why styles don't beat fighters, fighters beat fighters if that makes any sense. Of course styles play a big part but there isn't this set of rules as to what style beats what even though a lot of fans think that.
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#114
Old 01-16-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by GoldenAssassin View Post
Feinting and jabbing is the key to beating the shoulder roll.
Yep, it's all about the feints especially. Nobody seems to try and lure Floyd into anything. They just go punch-crazy and start throwing shots at his head.

Think of it like a video game. If there was a boss at the end of some level who did the shoulder roll, and hooks/overhand punches didn't work, would you keep on throwing them over and over? No. But that's what fighters seem to keep doing against Floyd Mayweather, when they should be finding some unorthodox way of getting through his defenses.

We've seen the jab work more than any other shot against Floyd. Oscar landed his often, as did Cotto. Miguel Cotto caught Floyd with like three jabs in a row. Three SLOW jabs at the end of a round. So the jab works.

If you use feints, you disrupt his shoulder roll, because he rolls the "ghost" punch and then rolls back into the "real" punch. Also, you'd have to do a little bit of acting and pretend he caught you with a good shot. Floyd always opens his chin straight into the air when he's got an opponent hurt. Just look at the Ortiz "knockout." He's wide open for a counter there, but Ortiz is too busy getting hit to notice.

Feints, a jab and mental chess. And if you throw a right hand, jab to the body and go over the top with it, a la Shane Mosley. Also see Hearns / Duran.
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#115
Old 01-16-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyDempsey View Post
Yep, it's all about the feints especially. Nobody seems to try and lure Floyd into anything. They just go punch-crazy and start throwing shots at his head.

Think of it like a video game. If there was a boss at the end of some level who did the shoulder roll, and hooks/overhand punches didn't work, would you keep on throwing them over and over? No. But that's what fighters seem to keep doing against Floyd Mayweather, when they should be finding some unorthodox way of getting through his defenses.

We've seen the jab work more than any other shot against Floyd. Oscar landed his often, as did Cotto. Miguel Cotto caught Floyd with like three jabs in a row. Three SLOW jabs at the end of a round. So the jab works.

If you use feints, you disrupt his shoulder roll, because he rolls the "ghost" punch and then rolls back into the "real" punch. Also, you'd have to do a little bit of acting and pretend he caught you with a good shot. Floyd always opens his chin straight into the air when he's got an opponent hurt. Just look at the Ortiz "knockout." He's wide open for a counter there, but Ortiz is too busy getting hit to notice.

Feints, a jab and mental chess. And if you throw a right hand, jab to the body and go over the top with it, a la Shane Mosley. Also see Hearns / Duran.
Exactly right. Floyd is VERY reactive as a fighter. Any little flinch and he is either ducking down, pulling back or rolling his arms and elbows to block any oncoming attack. A little feint here and there could set up straighter shots.

Castillo did well in that regard, making Floyd bend or lean back before actually launching punches at him. Oscar as well. Just watch Roy Jones against Toney too. Lots of feinting and lead straight punches getting Toney off balance and out of his comfort zone.
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#116
Old 01-16-2013, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeFist View Post
My point is that you're overrating the effectiveness of Cotto's roughhouse tactics when they didn't even work. He won no more than 4 rounds and that wasn't even down to him being rough it was down to him having good timing with his jab.
He used his jab effectively too. But that's not the one single factor that won him those rounds. Round 8 was his best round and he was swarming him. Round 6 was also a good round for him that took place more in the center of the ring.

Again. There's a lot of things he did good well that fight.
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#117
Old 01-16-2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baya View Post
the problem with this is that, as you're hitting that shoulder, you become a sitting duck for the quickest counters in the game.
First thing I thought too.
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#118
Old 01-16-2013, 11:13 AM
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Smashing up his shoulder might be as good a tactic as any, but variation is the key in my opinion. With Floyd, I think you can get to him early on in fights but he adjusts so well as it progresses.
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