Frazier V Marciano

[Ray Corso]

Joe Fraziers heart could fight in any era and he used his size and style to his advantage most of the time but I believe that Marciano's two handed attack would be the difference. Rock had power in both hands and was a more compact puncher utilizing more punches than Joes arsena had. Joe would need to be at no more than 212lbs. the older 220lbs Frazier would get hit alot more than the younger lighter Frazier. People who think Marciano wasn't deliberate and calculating are wrong! He knew how to judge distance as he felt out his opponents and knew if he could get under or slip outside on them. The so-caller brawling style is not without techniques and Joes lack of a jab as he got older and heavier would make things easier for Rocky.
If Ali didn't have his size (length) with his jab Marciano would KO him, as Ali said after their computer fight He'd never felt punches like Rocky's before. Now they weren't fighting but what Ali was saying was simular to how "hand shakes" are different from man to man. You can tell when a man has "natural" strength from his hands and any fighter can tell by light shadowing or light sparring with someone just how strong their touch is and that gives an idea of power! I like Marciano in a fairly close decs. in 10 & 12 but TKO win in a 15 late in 13/14/15!
Ali in great condition weighing no more than 215lbs goes 10 &12&15 with a close win but if he's hurt at anytime he gets stopped! Marciano has the conditioning to finish a guy who's hurt and will not be pursuaded to back off. Just look at his nose split down the middle wide open and how he kept coming!! Again the men like Marciano & Dempsey seem much smaller than the heavies that came after but I stood next to Ali & Marciano & Ali & Louis and their seemed to be a little height difference. Granted Louis & Marciano & Dempsey were long retired and above their best fighting weight but there just wasn't that much difference. At that time I met them Ali was about 220 and coming off a bout of the flu, so he wasn't exactly peak but his shoulders weren't any wider neither was his neck and his hands were smaller than Joes & Rocky's.
Dempsey I met by himself and he was about 225 I'd guess and he looked BIG wrists, neck, shoulders, head, hell even his face looked big hahahaha now that way over his prime weight but this guy held his later life weight perfectly so imagine him at 185 to 192 same as Rocky and Louis at 200lbs!!!
Throw in their intensity and willingness to win and their individual talents and you have great competitors who fought at a high level. The Highest! Ray.

[them_apples]

Originally Posted by Ray Corso

Joe Fraziers heart could fight in any era and he used his size and style to his advantage most of the time but I believe that Marciano's two handed attack would be the difference. Rock had power in both hands and was a more compact puncher utilizing more punches than Joes arsena had. Joe would need to be at no more than 212lbs. the older 220lbs Frazier would get hit alot more than the younger lighter Frazier. People who think Marciano wasn't deliberate and calculating are wrong! He knew how to judge distance as he felt out his opponents and knew if he could get under or slip outside on them. The so-caller brawling style is not without techniques and Joes lack of a jab as he got older and heavier would make things easier for Rocky.
If Ali didn't have his size (length) with his jab Marciano would KO him, as Ali said after their computer fight He'd never felt punches like Rocky's before. Now they weren't fighting but what Ali was saying was simular to how "hand shakes" are different from man to man. You can tell when a man has "natural" strength from his hands and any fighter can tell by light shadowing or light sparring with someone just how strong their touch is and that gives an idea of power! I like Marciano in a fairly close decs. in 10 & 12 but TKO win in a 15 late in 13/14/15!
Ali in great condition weighing no more than 215lbs goes 10 &12&15 with a close win but if he's hurt at anytime he gets stopped! Marciano has the conditioning to finish a guy who's hurt and will not be pursuaded to back off. Just look at his nose split down the middle wide open and how he kept coming!! Again the men like Marciano & Dempsey seem much smaller than the heavies that came after but I stood next to Ali & Marciano & Ali & Louis and their seemed to be a little height difference. Granted Louis & Marciano & Dempsey were long retired and above their best fighting weight but there just wasn't that much difference. At that time I met them Ali was about 220 and coming off a bout of the flu, so he wasn't exactly peak but his shoulders weren't any wider neither was his neck and his hands were smaller than Joes & Rocky's.
Dempsey I met by himself and he was about 225 I'd guess and he looked BIG wrists, neck, shoulders, head, hell even his face looked big hahahaha now that way over his prime weight but this guy held his later life weight perfectly so imagine him at 185 to 192 same as Rocky and Louis at 200lbs!!!
Throw in their intensity and willingness to win and their individual talents and you have great competitors who fought at a high level. The Highest! Ray.

i like how you understand how frame size defines a man size and often his punching power, but i think you get your facts and predictions wrong. Ali was a big man himself, naturally big legs and skull, his fists were tiny either. Rocky had thick wrists allowing him to hit the shoulders or just about anywhere and not injure himself, but his fists weren't bigger as you put it.

[Bigdaddy_Vh]

I often see Rocky rated above Frazier which i think is wrong personally. Joe's resume is head and shoulders above Marciano.(though i would like to point out that its not Rocky's fault that he fought in between the two great eras of heavy's). Fraziers style, to me, is a bobbing and weaving and faster version of Rockys. Both fighters were relentless as hell. I can see Joe winning this one by a WIDE UD unless Rocky caught him with some **** near the end.

[Japanese Boxing]

Originally Posted by House of Stone

just look at the walcott fight, rocky was completely outboxed in that one through 12 rounds until rocky eventually caught him. In other words he only barely managed it and walcott was no ali. Frazier over ali is miles better than anything on rocky's record - no way in hell could rocky have gotten the win over the greatest.

I feel as though if frazier had retired after that first ali fight and been undefeated with a win over the GOAT this would be a non debate, but because he went on and lost to guys miles and miles above anything that rocky ever fought and would also have lost to, he ends up being ranked below him.

IMO Walcott was a much more intelligent boxer than Frazier.

If we're going h2h you gotta think Frazier at some point would try to trade with Marciano which would be a really bad thing for him. Marciano hit as hard as Foreman but was relentless and didn't need to pace himself. He could keep coming and keep throwing bombs into Frazier and break his will. That's what Rocky did. He broke people wills and then broke their jaws. Ali stylistically is a horrible match up for Rocky, but if post draft dodge Ali did that rope a dope strategy against Rocky he might have been killed. Depends which Ali fought really.

Mind you I'm not saying Frazier wasn't a strong willed fighter either. But I feel stylistically at some point Frazier wouldn't be able to handle Rock's pressure. Very few guys could. They over thought and Rocky was still coming with instinct as well as intelligence.

[Capaedia]

Originally Posted by Japanese Boxing

IMO Walcott was a much more intelligent boxer than Frazier.

So were Ali, Mathis, Machen, Quarry and Ellis.

If we're going h2h you gotta think Frazier at some point would try to trade with Marciano which would be a really bad thing for him. Marciano hit as hard as Foreman but was relentless and didn't need to pace himself.

Whoa, what? Who did Marciano prove that against? Foreman was throwing men like Ken Norton (6'3) off their feet and tossing them around like children.

Marciano was putting away much smaller men than Foreman, and he was taking a lot more shots to do it. Later in the fight as well. On top of that, a lot of these fighters were nobodies, I'm not saying Foreman fought a full list of HOFers but he certainly fought more ranked fighters.

and He could keep coming and keep throwing bombs into Frazier and break his will. That's what Rocky did. He broke people wills and then broke their jaws.

That's actually the same thing Frazier did. Frazier was the more accurate, faster and stronger man. There was also no quit in him. There was no quit in him OR Marciano. Neither man's will is being broken here.

Ali stylistically is a horrible match up for Rocky, but if post draft dodge Ali did that rope a dope strategy against Rocky he might have been killed. Depends which Ali fought really.

He tried that very strategy against Frazier, it didn't work then either, in fact he took a hellacious beating in doing so and then abandoned it.

Mind you I'm not saying Frazier wasn't a strong willed fighter either. But I feel stylistically at some point Frazier wouldn't be able to handle Rock's pressure. Very few guys could. They over thought and Rocky was still coming with instinct as well as intelligence.

Very few guys should have. His top-level competition was very limited, and he still nearly lost the decision to Roland La Starza.

Let's look at the Moore fight. Yes Rocky won that one, but look at when he has Moore absolutely exhausted and against the ropes. He has to throw so many shots before he actually manages to land good enough punches to take him out. Moore's chin is worse than Fraziers, and at that point in his career and that fight especially, worse head movement.

I would also add that I think Marciano, as the smaller and weaker man, would be getting pushed back by Frazier. How would Marciano deal with his pressure?

[Japanese Boxing]

People have said bumping bodies with Marciano hurt. That should tell you how tough, and physical he was. I've never heard that about another fighter. As for the Ali reference it was H2H so when people bring up Ali it's really irrelevant.

As for Foreman and Marciano, they both have SICK power. Foreman was a big dude himself, but Marciano had that with his frame and small body. P4P Marciano had some gifts man. He also had a 2 handed attack unlike Frazier who would limit himself from time to time

[Ray Corso]

With exception of Frazier I've shaken hands with all the men and I'm speaking from actual experience! I have a hand shake that people remember and have large hands so I know what I'm talking about, have you (th.apples) had a simular experience with these men? As to Ali I worked for his promotion company and worked on a few live cards he promoted! I've met with and spoken to him more than a few times.
To come here and share some of my experiences should be interesting to fans of the fighters I have experiences with but to give my opinion on the topic here and then be told I'm wrong from someone who's never sat and spoken to me or the topic figures gets abit old and tirersome. My opinions come from actual experience where as your reading of a fights height.weight,fists,reach chart of some kind!! Done with this! Ray Corso

[jabsRstiff]

Originally Posted by Ray Corso

With exception of Frazier I've shaken hands with all the men and I'm speaking from actual experience! I have a hand shake that people remember and have large hands so I know what I'm talking about, have you (th.apples) had a simular experience with these men? As to Ali I worked for his promotion company and worked on a few live cards he promoted! I've met with and spoken to him more than a few times.
To come here and share some of my experiences should be interesting to fans of the fighters I have experiences with but to give my opinion on the topic here and then be told I'm wrong from someone who's never sat and spoken to me or the topic figures gets abit old and tirersome. My opinions come from actual experience where as your reading of a fights height.weight,fists,reach chart of some kind!! Done with this! Ray Corso

Your experiences would be welcomed, enjoyed, and valued if you weren't such a narcissistic asswipe.

Again, what you've experienced is nice.....but you're kind of a stupid guy who doesn't have the intelligence or courtesy to share your experiences in a way people want.

The question is, from reading your posts, "Who the f*ck is Ray Corso?".

[Ray Corso]

I'm the guy who doesn't cuss and degrade like you do! I'm the guy who could talk about methods and techniques that you can't do! I'm the guy who has pm's sent to me thanking me for my assistance with their boxing questions who won't post here because of the few jerks (incert your name) that care to critizise and start insults instead of listening and learning something!
I'm Ray Corso who the hell are you? Is your name jabsRstiff or is it JerksOffto Much hahahaha!
The bottom line is I'm the guy you'd NEVER speak to like that inperson, thats a FACT! Your just another hater who hates the fact that a new member is here who knows abit more about the game than you do and your little mind gets threatened because you don't have the guts to ask questions to me you'd rather degrade and defame someone who differs from you. Ray Corso

[jabsRstiff]

Originally Posted by Ray Corso

I'm the guy who doesn't cuss and degrade like you do! I'm the guy who could talk about methods and techniques that you can't do! I'm the guy who has pm's sent to me thanking me for my assistance with their boxing questions who won't post here because of the few jerks (incert your name) that care to critizise and start insults instead of listening and learning something!
I'm Ray Corso who the hell are you? Is your name jabsRstiff or is it JerksOffto Much hahahaha!
The bottom line is I'm the guy you'd NEVER speak to like that inperson, thats a FACT! Your just another hater who hates the fact that a new member is here who knows abit more about the game than you do and your little mind gets threatened because you don't have the guts to ask questions to me you'd rather degrade and defame someone who differs from you. Ray Corso

No one is jealous or threatened by such an insecure guy like you.

You aren't anyone and the way you have to harp on being someone tells me you know you aren't anyone.