Frazier V Marciano

[Capaedia]

I see it all the time, Marciano hovering around number 6-8 on ATG lists, Frazier at 7-10. Usually lower than Marciano.

But how does one justify putting Marciano above Frazier?

Let's look at their resume of wins, off the top of my head (if I forget any, please prompt me to add them)

Bonavena x2
Chuvalo
Quarry x2
Ellis x2
Ali
Bugner
Jones
Mathis
Machen (past his best)

Versus

Walcott x2
Charles x2
Cockell
Moore
La Starza x2
Layne
Louis (far past his best, about the same quality fighter as Machen was at this stage)

The best win in either list is far and away Muhammad Ali. Louis was shot to pieces at that stage.

Marciano and Frazier both went undefeated for 7 years. Frazier was far quicker to step up in competition and overall I would say had the better competition and the better single win (by a significant margin).

Just to wander into the completely subjective, I believe Frazier is also the better fighter H2H. I think FOTC Ali would've decisioned Marciano and Foreman would bounce both Frazier and Marciano off the canvas until the ref stepped in, on the same night if he had to.

Let's try keep this civil. I know some ****tards entertain the idea that if you choose a black fighter over a white fighter, you're a racist. But this section is almost always better than that.

[Mannie Phresh]

Its a solid argument.

[Panthershock]

Very solid justification for your argument. Clearly Frazier had better quality wins.
The undefeated record is what gives Marciano the edge, and it's not simply because he never lost. Certainly the 49-0 record stands out and helps his legacy. Losses also give us perspective into what type of fighter or strategy a fighter is vulnerable to. Frazier for example, we saw what Foreman did to him and we saw a post prime Ali outbox him twice.

Marciano is in a position where a further level of speculation is needed to determine what potential flaws could be exploited to beat him. Gun to my head, I'd agree that Marciano loses to 1971 Ali and gets knocked out by Foreman. However, you can't actually bring up specific fights in which he was knocked out early or lost a decision. It creates a less solid basis in which to speculate on Marciano losing.

[Capaedia]

That's my problem, Marciano seems to benefit from being given the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.

Frazier proved his mettle against better fighters, and in the process lost against two of the greatest heavyweights ever (beating one of them however). I don't think the latter half justifies ranking him lower.

For arguments sake I would also bring up that Marciano was very nearly (some would say he was) outboxed by Roland La Starza.

I have not seen the fight, I am not saying it should have gone to La Starza, but he is nowhere near the level of the men Frazier has losses to in the book.

I also do not think that fight should take away from his ranking.

[B-Bomber]

Very solid point,

I admit to have rated Marciano above Frazier in my list, but I can entirely see your point.
In short, Frazier fought a far better opposition and lost a few fights, while Marciano dominated a rather weak division.

Frazier has the misfortune, in a sense, to have lived in the same era as Alì and in one of the best periods ever of the HW divison.
Not many people would rate Frazier above Marciano, simply because Frazier was the second (possibly the 3rd, if we include Foreman) of his times.

As a side note, I'd love to see at least one HW fight somewhat like Smokin' Joe, I was recently watching Alì-Frazier I . It was astonishing to see how Joe would keep on coming forward, bobbing and weaving, throwing body shots with utter determination, no matter how often he got hit.
I love his "Yes, I'm crazy" attitude.

[Capaedia]

Originally Posted by B-Bomber

Very solid point,

I admit to have rated Marciano above Frazier in my list, but I can entirely see your point.
In short, Frazier fought a far better opposition and lost a few fights, while Marciano dominated a rather weak division.

Frazier has the misfortune, in a sense, to have lived in the same era as Alì and in one of the best periods ever of the HW divison.
Not many people would rate Frazier above Marciano, simply because Frazier was the second (possibly the 3rd, if we include Foreman) of his times.

As a side note, I'd love to see at least one HW fight somewhat like Smokin' Joe, I was recently watching Alì-Frazier I . It was astonishing to see how Joe would keep on coming forward, bobbing and weaving, throwing body shots with utter determination, no matter how often he got hit.
I love his "Yes, I'm crazy" attitude.

For what it's worth, Chisora is a destitute man's Joe Frazier.

Definitely not a role model. Nor is he a very good fighter. But he's the closest you'll see for a loooong time.

[House of Stone]

Originally Posted by Capaedia

I see it all the time, Marciano hovering around number 6-8 on ATG lists, Frazier at 7-10. Usually lower than Marciano.

But how does one justify putting Marciano above Frazier?

Let's look at their resume of wins, off the top of my head (if I forget any, please prompt me to add them)

Bonavena x2
Chuvalo
Quarry x2
Ellis x2
Ali
Bugner
Jones
Mathis
Machen (past his best)

Versus

Walcott x2
Charles x2
Cockell
Moore
La Starza x2
Layne
Louis (far past his best, about the same quality fighter as Machen was at this stage)

The best win in either list is far and away Muhammad Ali. Louis was shot to pieces at that stage.

Marciano and Frazier both went undefeated for 7 years. Frazier was far quicker to step up in competition and overall I would say had the better competition and the better single win (by a significant margin).

Just to wander into the completely subjective, I believe Frazier is also the better fighter H2H. I think FOTC Ali would've decisioned Marciano and Foreman would bounce both Frazier and Marciano off the canvas until the ref stepped in, on the same night if he had to.

Let's try keep this civil. I know some ****tards entertain the idea that if you choose a black fighter over a white fighter, you're a racist. But this section is almost always better than that.

i agree completely well done sir

[House of Stone]

Originally Posted by Panthershock

Very solid justification for your argument. Clearly Frazier had better quality wins.
The undefeated record is what gives Marciano the edge, and it's not simply because he never lost. Certainly the 49-0 record stands out and helps his legacy. Losses also give us perspective into what type of fighter or strategy a fighter is vulnerable to. Frazier for example, we saw what Foreman did to him and we saw a post prime Ali outbox him twice.

Marciano is in a position where a further level of speculation is needed to determine what potential flaws could be exploited to beat him. Gun to my head, I'd agree that Marciano loses to 1971 Ali and gets knocked out by Foreman. However, you can't actually bring up specific fights in which he was knocked out early or lost a decision. It creates a less solid basis in which to speculate on Marciano losing.

just look at the walcott fight, rocky was completely outboxed in that one through 12 rounds until rocky eventually caught him. In other words he only barely managed it and walcott was no ali. Frazier over ali is miles better than anything on rocky's record - no way in hell could rocky have gotten the win over the greatest.

I feel as though if frazier had retired after that first ali fight and been undefeated with a win over the GOAT this would be a non debate, but because he went on and lost to guys miles and miles above anything that rocky ever fought and would also have lost to, he ends up being ranked below him.

[Oselav]

What a great fight that would be.

Both slowish starters who really brought the heat in the middle rounds and had a great work rate to the final bell.
Both showed great heart in come from behind victories.

Both hated to be held in close in so would be great inside war.
Suspect that Joe's left hook may be marginally the best punch of the two (just), but that Rocky had the greater all round 2 handed artillery.


To close to pick, but this would be in my top 3 HW fantasty fights ever.

Agree that Joe's CV is better, but Rocky built his legend on fighting guys around Joe's dimensions,

[them_apples]

Originally Posted by Capaedia

That's my problem, Marciano seems to benefit from being given the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.

Frazier proved his mettle against better fighters, and in the process lost against two of the greatest heavyweights ever (beating one of them however). I don't think the latter half justifies ranking him lower.

For arguments sake I would also bring up that Marciano was very nearly (some would say he was) outboxed by Roland La Starza.

I have not seen the fight, I am not saying it should have gone to La Starza, but he is nowhere near the level of the men Frazier has losses to in the book.

I also do not think that fight should take away from his ranking.

I've seen the fight, Ali would definently outbox Rocky. i cant see it going any other way.