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#41
Old 09-03-2012, 12:31 AM
Mintcar923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capaedia View Post
That wasn't Ali at his finest, but I believe it was definitely up there as far as his performances go. Especially when you consider this wasn't a shot (literally) Cleveland Williams he was dealing with. This was an ATG heavyweight.

And he looked that way in round 11 because frankly, Frazier ****ed him up. I give him a lot of credit for even surviving that round. He had one of the best body-punchers ever working him for 11 rounds, then he got caught with a great hook, and he still didn't get knocked down. It took 4 more rounds for that.

From the mid-rounds onwards, Frazier made him fight above his pace, and he even looked great doing that. He was sitting down on his punches and trying to ward Frazier off as best as he could. If he'd tried to dance away he would've exhausted himself. Even when he held he was still taking hard bodyshots.

Perhaps you should watch that fight again if you think he looked horrid. I've never heard that opinion before or anything resembling it.
So Ali looked so spectacular in the Williams era cause those kinda guys may have been shot? I don't know about that! I re-watched all three Frazier fights about 2 months ago or so. There was a lot of holding in the second but Muhammad did look a lot better and had him in a lot of trouble in round 2. As far as getting back to the first fight he took A LOT of punishmnent from Joe that night. He took a really bad beating though he got his licks in. Don't get me wrong as this wasn't the shot Ali that Larry Holmes and Leon Spinks would get later on.

Ali wasn't at his best in fight 1 IMO. Not by a long shot. Again, I don't know whether it was Frazier's style or the inactivity that was the main problem. But, I suppose if there were a type of fighter that could make Ali look a bit horrid or mediocre it would be someone with a style like Frazier or even Norton.
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#42
Old 09-03-2012, 01:08 AM
Capaedia
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Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
So Ali looked so spectacular in the Williams era cause those kinda guys may have been shot? I don't know about that! I re-watched all three Frazier fights about 2 months ago or so.
Like everyone, you look at your 'best' against inferior competition. The Cleveland Williams fight is often regarded his best performance, but Williams' had been shot, literally shot, by police a few months earlier.

I think his best performances are against the better fighters of his career i.e. Liston, Foreman and Frazier. These are the most telling ones because he needs to pull everything out to not get stopped by these types of fighters.

Coincidentally, Ali didn't steamroll these fighters. He could've fought two Cleveland Williams at the same time and it still wouldn't have taken as much skill and effort.

Quote:
There was a lot of holding in the second but Muhammad did look a lot better and had him in a lot of trouble in round 2. As far as getting back to the first fight he took A LOT of punishmnent from Joe that night. He took a really bad beating though he got his licks in. Don't get me wrong as this wasn't the shot Ali that Larry Holmes and Leon Spinks would get later on.
Problem is, this fight was after Joe's fight with Foreman. We all know what happened there. It was also just after Frazier struggled to put away a mediocre opponent in Joe Bugner. On top of everything else, he was all but blind in his left eye (cataracts)

Unsurprisingly the fight paled in comparison to the other two. Ali held behind the head all night, and Frazier visibly just didn't have the same fire.

God knows how he pulled out his performance in the rubbermatch.

Quote:
Ali wasn't at his best in fight 1 IMO. Not by a long shot. Again, I don't know whether it was Frazier's style or the inactivity that was the main problem. But, I suppose if there were a type of fighter that could make Ali look a bit horrid or mediocre it would be someone with a style like Frazier or even Norton.
It was because Frazier was an ATG opponent, and only slightly faded. I don't understand this claim that he looked horrid or mediocre. Everyone else thinks he looked fantastic.

But Frazier looked better.
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#43
Old 09-03-2012, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Capaedia View Post
It was also just after Frazier struggled to put away a mediocre opponent in Joe Bugner.
Have to take issue with you here. Bugner was anything but mediocre.
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#44
Old 11-07-2013, 02:29 PM
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He was.Sonny,at his best, was a dominant fighter, but his time at the top, being champion, was short, and Ali beating him probably prevented a more embarrassing scenario to happen.
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#45
Old 11-07-2013, 02:39 PM
SBleeder
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Originally Posted by Dynamite76 View Post
He was.Sonny,at his best, was a dominant fighter, but his time at the top, being champion, was short, and Ali beating him probably prevented a more embarrassing scenario to happen.
Ezzard Charles was never light heavyweight champ. Should we not rank him at 175 for that reason?

Liston would have blown Patterson away from any time after 1958. Custom Auto made sure his man was protected, but Sonny was the uncrowned champion for a good five years.
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#46
Old 11-07-2013, 04:43 PM
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Sonny, like many fighters, didnt get his title shot till late in his career,,
I dont think he is overrated, simply for the fact that nobody rates him in the top 5 and some dont even have him in the top 10,,,,

I think liston is rated very accurately around here,, he was a very good heavy, but not the cream of the crop like a louis, holmes, ali, etc,,,, he is more in the class of frazier, tyson, etc
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#47
Old 11-08-2013, 12:52 AM
Anthony342
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No, no he isn't overrated. Next question.

Last edited by Anthony342; 11-08-2013 at 05:43 PM.
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#48
Old 11-08-2013, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Liston could be top 10, but not higher than Marciano
I tend to think Liston would have destroyed Marciano.
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#49
Old 11-08-2013, 04:19 PM
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Liston was a very good boxer and puncher, he had style and form and a terrific jab.

No heavy ever "destroys" Marciano, he could have lost but you need to look deeper into Rocky character and heart, when you learn more about the man as a fighter and champion you'd know destroy is a ridiculous term to use!
Ray
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#50
Old 11-08-2013, 04:29 PM
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Quite overrated. Very, very hands made of stone, but slow as molasses. Modern hw's would beat him easily.
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