Least Skilled ATG? - Page 8

Barnburner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanese Boxing

Oh come the **** on.. Maybe age wise but you can't make the argument that Liston was so superior to Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis, Archie Moore, and Jersey Joe Walcott. If you said because of age, I'd agree for the most part. But thos names alone people will kill to have on their resume.

Yes I can if Charles and Moore were prime at LHW AND not as good as Liston at HW, Joe Louis was coming off a retirement and Jersey Joe Walcott is nowhere near Liston as a great HW anyway.

What there do you disagree with, "come the **** on"?

Japanese Boxing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnburner

Yes I can if Charles and Moore were prime at LHW AND not as good as Liston at HW, Joe Louis was coming off a retirement and Jersey Joe Walcott is nowhere near Liston as a great HW anyway.

What there do you disagree with, "come the **** on"?

Which is why I said if you bring age into it. But if we're just talkin' names it's a different story.

I'm just saying they are good names to have. Don't really disagree. I just read your post trying to minimize the guys on Rocks record. Joe Louis is a better name to have than Liston IMO.

Barnburner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanese Boxing

Which is why I said if you bring age into it. But if we're just talkin' names it's a different story.

I'm just saying they are good names to have. Don't really disagree. I just read your post trying to minimize the guys on Rocks record. Joe Louis is a better name to have than Liston IMO.

Yes but sadly that's not what resumes are made of.

I mean do we give Johnson credit for knocking out Stanley Ketchel a MW, no we don't really, even though he's arguably top 30 all time.

And for the record as a name Liston > Walcott anyway.

poet682006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanese Boxing

Which is why I said if you bring age into it. But if we're just talkin' names it's a different story.

I'm just saying they are good names to have. Don't really disagree. I just read your post trying to minimize the guys on Rocks record. Joe Louis is a better name to have than Liston IMO.

It isn't just the name. When you fight that name matters. You don't get credit for beating an ATG name when said ATG name is washed up. Do you think Larry Holmes gets any credit for having Ali's name on his resume? Of course not.

Poet

poet682006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanese Boxing

The Rock had the stamina we know Foreman didn't. Nuff said.

Frazier's stamina was as good as Marciano's......how'd that work out for Joe against Foreman?

Poet

Japanese Boxing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnburner

Yes but sadly that's not what resumes are made of.

I mean do we give Johnson credit for knocking out Stanley Ketchel a MW, no we don't really, even though he's arguably top 30 all time.

And for the record as a name Liston > Walcott anyway.

I agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poet682006

It isn't just the name. When you fight that name matters. You don't get credit for beating an ATG name when said ATG name is washed up. Do you think Larry Holmes gets any credit for having Ali's name on his resume? Of course not.

Poet

Extreme case made for Ali.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poet682006

Frazier's stamina was as good as Marciano's......how'd that work out for Joe against Foreman?

Poet

Was Frazier as tough as Marciano? Do people say how it hurt when Frazier just bumped into them? I know Frazier was tough, I'd say Marciano had a better chin and was the tougher of the two. Frazier was more skilled though, no denying that.

poet682006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanese Boxing

Extreme case made for Ali.

Louis was just as washed up when Marciano fought him.

Poet

Japanese Boxing

Quote:

Originally Posted by poet682006

Louis was just as washed up when Marciano fought him.

Poet

Louis had textbook boxing that didn't rely as much on reflexes as Ali's did. Nor did it require him eating a lot of shots. I'd say and old Louis is a much tougher fighter than old Ali.

poet682006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanese Boxing

Louis had textbook boxing that didn't rely as much on reflexes as Ali's did. Nor did it require him eating a lot of shots. I'd say and old Louis is a much tougher fighter than old Ali.

Even the most textbook fighter still relies on reflexes to avoid his opponents punches and land his own shots. Once those are gone a fighter is shot regardless of how technically correct he is. Make no mistake, Louis reflexes were gone by the time of the Marciano fight.

Poet

Mintcar923 · 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnburner

49 bouts is a very complete career if you start fighting world class opposition maybe 20 fights in. However Rocky didn't.

Justifying Rocky retiring early by saying that Ali should have is just silly.

Liston here is irrelevant, you believe Marciano is greater than Ali. Why is Liston even being talked about?

Marciano is not greater than Ali no matter your criteria or they way you present your argument. It's a stone cold fact that can only be denied by a huge bias.

Just to confirm I counted 13 good wins out of 49 on Rocky's record.

Ali has several wins that are better than Rocky's best win.

You pretty much got it wrong and you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying Rocky retired when he should have and beat all best of his time. Also, he was pretty much known to have been forced to retire because his manager was ripping him off and was stuck under contract with him.

You're saying that he didn't fight the best opponents until later in his career. Well, even if that was the case, so what? He still beat everyone out there and his record still stands to this day! And, we're talking almost 60 years later. Every heavyweight for decades had always hoped to break it or even tie it and all had failed. Even super-talents like Tyson, Holyfield, and Holmes. If thats not the most impressive feat I don't know what is. You say you wouldn't fault him for the era he fought in but it seems like you are. But, sad to say there are a lot of people who downplay Rocky. There's one guy on here that doesn't even have him in his top-12. How laughable is that??

You say Liston is not relevant in this debate. But, indeed he is very much so. Sonny is one of the top wins in Ali's prime career. Maybe even the best win. But, how great was he? How many wins did he have? How many defenses of the title did he make? He pretty much quit the rematch with Ali before it started. He was very good at intimidation. He had a bully's mentality and Muhammad knew how to take advantage of it even before fight 1. Thats a fact that virtually everyone knows.

I'm not knocking Ali, though. He was the best of his time as Rocky was of his. Yes, I think he fought on too long. But, I don't figure it into his rating. I just think Marciano had a more consistant career and was an incredible champion. Am i not entitled to see it that way? Apparantly, you feel a three-time gifted champ who fought for a longer duration of time is more impressive than a man who trained like a dog, retired with a perfect record, and had an immensely stellar career. In his prime, I really can't find any faults with the way he carried himself inside or outside the ring. And, thats why I'm putting him as #1 heavyweight champion by a hair.