Which HWs past and present would have had a good chance of beating a 70s Foreman? - Page 5

Yaman

Quote:

Originally Posted by poet682006

I have a high regard for Quarry but I don't have any illusions about him beating a fighter in Foreman's class. Simply wasn't going to happen. There have been some eras where Jerry could have won a title.....'65-'75 wasn't one of those eras.

Poet

Class doesn't mean much when you have a problematic style and a mental edge(btw just found it now. In Foreman's book he said Quarry was the only man he ever ducked). Ron Lyle wasn't as good as Quarry or top class level but he was very close to defeating Foreman.

I simply don't see Foreman as this unbeatable monster as his fans do, I really don't. Durability and counter punching present problems to the big man.

poet682006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaman

Class doesn't mean much when you have a problematic style and a mental edge(btw just found it now. In Foreman's book he said Quarry was the only man he ever ducked). Ron Lyle wasn't as good as Quarry or top class level but he was very close to defeating Foreman.

I simply don't see Foreman as this unbeatable monster as his fans do, I really don't. Durability and counter punching present problems to the big man.

Lyle got brutally knocked out. And there was very little about Quarry's style that I'd call "problematical": He was a pretty orthodox boxer-puncher.

I wouldn't put any stock in what George wrote in his book. George says a lot of dumb things and his book isn't any different from the silliness he typically broadcast on HBO boxing.

Poet

Yaman

Quote:

Originally Posted by poet682006

Lyle got brutally knocked out. And there was very little about Quarry's style that I'd call "problematical": He was a pretty orthodox boxer-puncher.

I wouldn't put any stock in what George wrote in his book. George says a lot of dumb things and his book isn't any different from the silliness he typically broadcast on HBO boxing.

Poet

Sure but he also almost brutally knocked out Foreman. That fight is an important indication of Foreman's weaknesses and shows how he's just another human.

Quarry was far more than just a boxer-puncher, he also had a very good inside game and counters. But I suppose Foreman's illegal pushing-the shoulders-backwards would be an answer for that.

Sure Foreman talks a lot but he was smart enough to avoid Quarry as he was coming up. I would have bet on Quarry vs the young Foreman that went the UD with Peralta. A few years after that, Foreman may stop Quarry on cuts after he pushes his shoulders the whole fight and tries to club him, but I can see Quarry weathering the early storm like Young did and then pepper him the rest of the fight.

poet682006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaman

Quarry was far more than just a boxer-puncher, he also had a very good inside game and counters. But I suppose Foreman's illegal pushing-the shoulders-backwards would be an answer for that.

Frazier had an even better inside game than Quarry.....how'd that work out for Joe? You know, the Joe Frazier that Foreman was terrified of?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaman

Sure Foreman talks a lot but he was smart enough to avoid Quarry as he was coming up. I would have bet on Quarry vs the young Foreman that went the UD with Peralta. A few years after that, Foreman may stop Quarry on cuts after he pushes his shoulders the whole fight and tries to club him, but I can see Quarry weathering the early storm like Young did and then pepper him the rest of the fight.

I sure as hell wouldn't. This isn't the brutal punching but very limited Shavers here. Foreman is a whole different beast. Remember, Frazier destroyed Quarry and a past-prime Ali had a pretty easy time of it as well against him. Jerry was a good fighter not a great one. He was always going to fall short when you stuck him in the ring with an ATG caliber opponent......like Foreman.

Poet

Yaman

Quote:

Originally Posted by poet682006

Frazier had an even better inside game than Quarry.....how'd that work out for Joe? You know, the Joe Frazier that Foreman was terrified of?

I sure as hell wouldn't. This isn't the brutal punching but very limited Shavers here. Foreman is a whole different beast. Remember, Frazier destroyed Quarry and a past-prime Ali had a pretty easy time of it as well against him. Jerry was a good fighter not a great one. He was always going to fall short when you stuck him in the ring with an ATG caliber opponent......like Foreman.

Poet

Frazier was a swarmer who could not fight backwards plus he was even shorter. It was easy for Foreman to just push him backwards on the shoulders and leave him with no alternative as Joe was on his backfoot. Ron Lyle to Foreman is a much better comparison than Frazier to Quarry.

Yes it's not the limited Shavers here but neither is it the similar Lyle who was beaten clearly by Quarry. To write him off based on his losses to ATG's like Ali and Frazier, two completely diffirent styles, doesn't mean that he didn't have the style and tools to beat Foreman. You know very well good fighters have beaten great fighters.

poet682006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaman

Frazier was a swarmer who could not fight backwards plus he was even shorter. It was easy for Foreman to just push him backwards on the shoulders and leave him with no alternative as Joe was on his backfoot. Ron Lyle to Foreman is a much better comparison than Frazier to Quarry.

Yes it's not the limited Shavers here but neither is it the similar Lyle who was beaten clearly by Quarry. To write him off based on his losses to ATG's like Ali and Frazier, two completely diffirent styles, doesn't mean that he didn't have the style and tools to beat Foreman. You know very well good fighters have beaten great fighters.

The whole "styles" thing is way overblown. While upsets do happen from time to time they are still very much the exception not the rule. The better fighter wins the vast majority of the time regardless of the "style" matchup. The only stylistic match up that I've ever seen that was determinative was short-armed pressure fighters against Foreman.

Truth be told, you're making it sound like Foreman was just a big fraud who couldn't do anything if he couldn't push off.....and that's far from the case. The flaws he did have were trouble with lateral movement and stamina. Quarry was no dancer, and he didn't have the chin to ride the storm until George gassed the way Ali did.

Poet

Scott9945

Quote:

Originally Posted by poet682006

I have a high regard for Quarry but I don't have any illusions about him beating a fighter in Foreman's class. Simply wasn't going to happen. There have been some eras where Jerry could have won a title.....'65-'75 wasn't one of those eras.

Poet

I remember that era first hand, and I give Quarry almost zero chance to beat a focused George Foreman. If someone want to compare similiar opponents, they should look at each of their fights against Ken Norton. And George is always making whacky comments and contradicting himself, so his admission of ducking Quarry can't be taken that literally.

poet682006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott9945

I remember that era first hand

Me too. I lived it. That's when I first got into boxing circa '72-'73

Poet

Yaman

Quote:

Originally Posted by poet682006

The whole "styles" thing is way overblown. While upsets do happen from time to time they are still very much the exception not the rule. The better fighter wins the vast majority of the time regardless of the "style" matchup. The only stylistic match up that I've ever seen that was determinative was short-armed pressure fighters against Foreman.

Truth be told, you're making it sound like Foreman was just a big fraud who couldn't do anything if he couldn't push off.....and that's far from the case. The flaws he did have were trouble with lateral movement and stamina. Quarry was no dancer, and he didn't have the chin to ride the storm until George gassed the way Ali did.

Poet

Well those exceptions happened not once but twice during Foreman's supposed prime. Who honestly thought Lyle and Young would do as well as they did against Foreman? Hell even Ali was a huge underdog. My point is we can't act like Foreman's wild shoving/clubbing tactics is gonna work every time with ease. Once he peaked at that form, he was never gonna be as dangerous later in the fight, and I find it a laughable idea that none of these guys would be able to surive the early onslaught, bring him in deep waters and beat him with points or late stoppage. For Quarry in particular I see plenty of indications to make an argument for him. His style and durability, the fact that he beat very similar guys, the probable mental edge he'd have etc.

Also not sure what you meant with dancer. Since Foreman cuts the ring off so well it would take more than a lot of movement, and there are more ways to beat him. He could be countered, sometimes very badly because of how wild and sluggish he was. I see a lot of weaknesses when I watch him and unlike most, I don't try to delete the Young and Lyle fights from history or make excuses for them.

Scott9945

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaman

Well those exceptions happened not once but twice during Foreman's supposed prime. Who honestly thought Lyle and Young would do as well as they did against Foreman? Hell even Ali was a huge underdog. My point is we can't act like Foreman's wild shoving/clubbing tactics is gonna work every time with ease. Once he peaked at that form, he was never gonna be as dangerous later in the fight, and I find it a laughable idea that none of these guys would be able to surive the early onslaught, bring him in deep waters and beat him with points or late stoppage. For Quarry in particular I see plenty of indications to make an argument for him. His style and durability, the fact that he beat very similar guys, the probable mental edge he'd have etc.

Also not sure what you meant with dancer. Since Foreman cuts the ring off so well it would take more than a lot of movement, and there are more ways to beat him. He could be countered, sometimes very badly because of how wild and sluggish he was. I see a lot of weaknesses when I watch him and unlike most, I don't try to delete the Young and Lyle fights from history or make excuses for them.

Foreman won the Lyle fight. Who needs excuses?