Let's say all heavyweight greats were in the same era?

[damuttz112]

Ken Norton’s trainer Eddie Futch said, (Anderson pg. 233), “The jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.”

May 5, 1969 Sports Illustrated, in an article, "Clay-Ali: The Once and Future King", Ali demonstrated how he avoided a jab. He relied on judging the distance and leaning away as in the photograph left He didnt know how to block a jab! If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, fighters with a good left jab could cause him great difficulty.

Norton consistently hit Ali with his jab because Ali didn't keep his right hand up to parry Norton’s counter jab. Ali leaned away from punches. He dropped his hands low. He threw a right uppercut from the outside and dropped his right hand every time before he threw it! This is precisely why Ali was vulnerable to the left hook throughout his career. A thorough study of film reveals these flaws in Ali's style. These poor habits caused him trouble with quick handed boxers who had solid left hands.

By Monte D. Cox

[res]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Buck

And he'd face a few of them in this round robin or whatever it is.

Well here is the list.

Dempsey, Johnson, Louis, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, & the Klits

The only ones on this list that qualify as pure swarmer/brawlers I think are Dempsey Marciano and Frazier.

We know Frazier is always an issue for Ali (perhaps less so for a younger version of Ali) so are you talking about the other two?

[res]

Originally Posted by damuttz112

Ken Norton’s trainer Eddie Futch said, (Anderson pg. 233), “The jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.”

Well he's entitled to his opinion.

Did he think that Holmes was just as niave about the jab?

Edited for Damutt's Edit:

May 5, 1969 Sports Illustrated, in an article, "Clay-Ali: The Once and Future King", Ali demonstrated how he avoided a jab. He relied on judging the distance and leaning away as in the photograph left He didnt know how to block a jab! If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, fighters with a good left jab could cause him great difficulty.

Personally I would take 6 '7" Ernie Terell's jab (he lived and died by that punch) over Doug Jones jab. He was also the greater fighter overall. Ali dominated him. No there are other factors (like Jones awkward style) that help explain Ali's problems. As i said, different people will have different takes but personally I don't buy it.

[Cardinal Buck]

Originally Posted by res

Well here is the list.




The only ones on this list that qualify as pure swarmer/brawlers I think are Dempsey Marciano and Frazier.

We know Frazier is always an issue for Ali (perhaps less so for a younger version of Ali) so are you talking about the other two?

Tyson and Louis would nail him with hooks. I'd also expect the rangy boxers (Holmes, Lewis, Klits) to give him issues.

[damuttz112]

Originally Posted by res

Well he's entitled to his opinion.

Did he think that Holmes was just as niave about the jab?

I just wanted to let you know I wasn't talking out of my ass. lol

No I don't at all, but I don't believe that that very fight is a good representation of either fighter's qualities, Ali already showing sings of Parkinson's and a conflicted Holmes who was in a no-win situation. I partly agree a shot Ali still gave him problems though. lol

Originally Posted by res

Personally I would take 6 '7" Ernie Terell's jab (he lived and died by that punch) over Doug Jones jab. He was also the greater fighter overall. No there are other factors (like Jones awkward style) that help explain Ali's problem. As i said, different people will have different takes but personally I don't buy it.

Terrell had height and a good jab but his skill level was not great. Yes Jones awkwardness did give him problems, you can also argue Clay was still considered green at the time he fought Doug Jones and Cooper. But I don't really know, I still consider him a fundamentally flawed fighter in a traditional sense, but he's still the greatest.

[fight_professor]

Originally Posted by rightsideup

ali in his prime which would have been in the middle of his exile which would not have occured in this fictional tourny

The Ali that beat Cleveland Williams was as close to HW perfection as possible. I cant see any man taking a W against that Ali. In the league, assuming 2 bouts v each guy - he may lose the odd bout but he wins it all.

[fight_professor]

Originally Posted by damuttz112

I just wanted to let you know I wasn't talking out of my ass. lol

No I don't at all, but I don't believe that that very fight is a good representation of either fighter's qualities, Ali already showing sings of Parkinson's and a conflicted Holmes who was in a no-win situation. I partly agree a shot Ali still gave him problems though. lol


Terrell had height and a good jab but his skill level was not great. Yes Jones awkwardness did give him problems, you can also argue Clay was still considered green at the time he fought Doug Jones and Cooper. But I don't really know, I still consider him a fundamentally flawed fighter in a traditional sense, but he's still the greatest.

Fast hands and a good left hook is Ali's weakness. Ali dropped his hands and was susceptible to that shot.

If he had more mental strength, I'd favour Tyson (prime) to be Ali's biggest challenge.

[nomadman]

Originally Posted by fight_professor

The Ali that beat Cleveland Williams was as close to HW perfection as possible. I cant see any man taking a W against that Ali. In the league, assuming 2 bouts v each guy - he may lose the odd bout but he wins it all.

Unfortunately, the Williams that lost to Ali that night was about as far from HW perfection as possible.

[res]

Originally Posted by res

Did he think that Holmes was just as niave about the jab?

Originally Posted by damuttz112

I just wanted to let you know I wasn't talking out of my ass. lol

No I don't at all, but I don't believe that that very fight is a good representation of either fighter's qualities, Ali already showing sings of Parkinson's and a conflicted Holmes who was in a no-win situation. I partly agree a shot Ali still gave him problems though. lol

Uhh... I was talking about Norton Vs Holmes. Norton's style naturally gave Boxer punchers trouble because of that crab defense that is designed to neutralize work off the jab, and this was the reason he was also problematic for Ali. On top of that the Norton that faced Holmes was past prime.

[fight_professor]

But Ali V Williams was Ali at a personal apex.