Prime James Toney vs Andre Ward @168 - Page 6 - Boxing Forum
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:41 AM #51
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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
I'd prefer to see Ward's fight against Dawson before making any outrageous statements regarding his level of ability.

No disrespect to him, but outside of Froch and Kessler, who are not the most versatile fighters out there, he hasn't faced much high level opposition yet. The likes of Miranda, Abraham and Bika will be mere footnotes in history and capturing grinding decisions over them won't be seen as a huge feat.

You can make the case that Toney didn't face many inside fighters as good as Ward, but Ward hasn't really faced anybody with much infighting ability. He has been able to rough-house opponents who aren't used to it. Not that Dawson is any different, but if he is able to beat another top level opponent without effort then anybody has to admit that he is class.
I'm not for one about the "home team" thing. But Let's be honest. Adamek has fought how many times out in the Prudential Center?

If Dawson comes out here to California, drop's a weight class, and beats Ward?

Well, tip of my cap.

But have any of the fights Ward has had out here been close? Enough to question?

Good to see you around by the way, GreatA.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:49 AM #52
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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea 50 View Post
I miss these types of threads in NSB. Great posts.

Somehow, I see Toney catching Ward with something big on the inside, one of those looping, almost nonsensical, but educated uppercuts, and using the momentum achieved from said punch carrying him to a close S.D. win.

People would ***** and moan about it be "boring", but the fight would be slicker then trying to ice skate uphill in Alaska with oil drenched hockey skates.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:26 AM #53
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Originally Posted by raf727 View Post
Toney would whip his ass all over the ring, while talking **** to him.
nobody is ever gonna whoop a fighter like ward all over the ring but id give tony the edge in a close fight
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:28 AM #54
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i think the whole he hasnt faced anyone argument is becoming played out these guys are fighting the top people in their division, these are ranked professional fighters they are somebody
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:00 PM #55
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Toney often had a verry hard time to make 168 because even back then he balooned up to about 220 pounds between fights. Im not saying Toney could have beaten RJJ, but especially in this fight he was verry weight drained.
Toney could have been an even better, more accomplished fighter without his weight problems. When we talk about a prime Toney at 168 that is not weight drained against Ward, i cant see Ward winning this fight.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:18 PM #56
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james toney, would beat andre ward, anytime, anywhere, anyplace, except oakland, california (word)
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:19 PM #57
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Originally Posted by Mastrangelo View Post
I never said Ward is bad outside fight or did I? You can't really think that not-great is the same thing as bad. He's more than just good, but nowhere near great. His outside game is overrated and so is his handspeed, but I expect both those qualities to be exposed against Chad Dawson to some extent.
If Ward will ever meet great outside fighter(I'm not sure Dawson is one), his strength will be in his inside game + ability to hold his own, not have adventage on the outside. If he had to stay outside I don't think he would even be competitive against Michael Nunn and Roy Jones Jr, or to make more modern comparision, I don't believe he could beat Andre Direll staying on the outside either. He's not really fast with his hands and feets, his right hand is ordinary and so is his left hook. His biggest strength there are his defence and ability to jab well to the body and head, but so far it worked against poor defensively and very stationary fighters(easier to use angles against them as well). Let's see how he does against Chad, this fight will answer many questions.
His left hook is ordinary? I disagree. Actually none of Ward's punches are "ordinary" IMO. And, as for Nunn and RJJ. I agree, Nunn was one of the best outside fighters since Ali, unfortunately his talent only took him so far. And, RJJ, well I don't really need to say much do I? That's the thing about Ward though, he doesn't fight any one style, he's a chameleon in the ring. Which is why he's so hard to figure out and be competitive with, let alone come close to beating him. I'll concede that Dawson is the best athletic fighter that Ward will have faced in his pro career. I expect Ward to beat Dawson though.

See the thing is with Ward, is that you can't really say about him that "Oh, wow, Ward does this well, and that well, and that well." because he shows a different side of himself in the ring nearly every time he's in the ring. And once you think you've figured out exactly what kind of fighter he is, he shows up on fight night with a virtually completely different style. Against Kessler, he used a lot of foot movement, against Green and Bika he fought inside all night, against Froch he stood right in front of him and picked him off for most of the fight, against Abraham he fought an outside fight predominantly.

And, I'm hard-pressed to believe Ward has gotten as far as he has with an ordinary right hand, and an ordinary left hook. Which, by the way, are two of his most used punches along with the uppercut. And while I'll concede to an extent that Froch and Kessler are not great defensively, they're not bad defensively either. Froch seems to be easy to hit, but he's not as easy to hit as it seems. He's very awkward and has better technical skills then given credit for. Look what he just did to Bute. Which, also raises Ward's stock.

Also, you said he's not "really" fast with his hands and feet. I agree that he's not Dirrell or RJJ fast-like. But what Ward doesn't have in power or speed, he makes up for with timing, elite technical skills, and very good footwork. Just because his feet and hands aren't super fast doesn't mean they don't get to the target as much. Ward's timing is up there with some of the best in the sport. Everyone said about Ward when he entered the tournament that he wouldn't have the "power" to keep guys like Abraham, Froch and Kessler "off of him". But, Ward understands about himself that he isn't a very big puncher, and that he isn't the fastest fighter out there, so he's crafted his boxing skills to the point where he has very little weaknesses.

Ward has an understanding of what he is as a fighter and has constructed himself accordingly. That's why he has never really came close to losing as a pro, that's why he hasn't lost a fight since he was 12 years of age. Because he always finds a way to get it done, and the only way I see Ward losing, is to a very special fighter of the caliber of someone LIKE Toney, Hopkins or RJJ. But even in those fights it's not cut and dried. Against Toney, like I said in a previous post, who would win would come down to who could utilize all their tools on fight night. I think it would turn into a trilogy. NEITHER guy, would win easily, they would both have to dig deep, and pull out every elite skill and ability to pull out a W. That's very reasonable IMO.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:44 PM #58
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Originally Posted by Tmann400 View Post
His left hook is ordinary? I disagree. Actually none of Ward's punches are "ordinary" IMO. And, as for Nunn and RJJ. I agree, Nunn was one of the best outside fighters since Ali, unfortunately his talent only took him so far. And, RJJ, well I don't really need to say much do I? That's the thing about Ward though, he doesn't fight any one style, he's a chameleon in the ring. Which is why he's so hard to figure out and be competitive with, let alone come close to beating him. I'll concede that Dawson is the best athletic fighter that Ward will have faced in his pro career. I expect Ward to beat Dawson though.

See the thing is with Ward, is that you can't really say about him that "Oh, wow, Ward does this well, and that well, and that well." because he shows a different side of himself in the ring nearly every time he's in the ring. And once you think you've figured out exactly what kind of fighter he is, he shows up on fight night with a virtually completely different style. Against Kessler, he used a lot of foot movement, against Green and Bika he fought inside all night, against Froch he stood right in front of him and picked him off for most of the fight, against Abraham he fought an outside fight predominantly.

And, I'm hard-pressed to believe Ward has gotten as far as he has with an ordinary right hand, and an ordinary left hook. Which, by the way, are two of his most used punches along with the uppercut. And while I'll concede to an extent that Froch and Kessler are not great defensively, they're not bad defensively either. Froch seems to be easy to hit, but he's not as easy to hit as it seems. He's very awkward and has better technical skills then given credit for. Look what he just did to Bute. Which, also raises Ward's stock.

Also, you said he's not "really" fast with his hands and feet. I agree that he's not Dirrell or RJJ fast-like. But what Ward doesn't have in power or speed, he makes up for with timing, elite technical skills, and very good footwork. Just because his feet and hands aren't super fast doesn't mean they don't get to the target as much. Ward's timing is up there with some of the best in the sport. Everyone said about Ward when he entered the tournament that he wouldn't have the "power" to keep guys like Abraham, Froch and Kessler "off of him". But, Ward understands about himself that he isn't a very big puncher, and that he isn't the fastest fighter out there, so he's crafted his boxing skills to the point where he has very little weaknesses.

Ward has an understanding of what he is as a fighter and has constructed himself accordingly. That's why he has never really came close to losing as a pro, that's why he hasn't lost a fight since he was 12 years of age. Because he always finds a way to get it done, and the only way I see Ward losing, is to a very special fighter of the caliber of someone LIKE Toney, Hopkins or RJJ. But even in those fights it's not cut and dried. Against Toney, like I said in a previous post, who would win would come down to who could utilize all their tools on fight night. I think it would turn into a trilogy. NEITHER guy, would win easily, they would both have to dig deep, and pull out every elite skill and ability to pull out a W. That's very reasonable IMO.
It is, it's a very good post overall, but despite how good Ward looked so far, I still have my doubts. His left hook and right hand may not be ordinary indeed, but I say it's closer to that than to special.
He is definitely a cameleon in the ring, what allows him to utilize on his opponents weaknesses. The thing, now is, that he never met fighter exceptional in one particular part of the game, especially not in the one that I believe will trouble him. Froch, Abraham, Bika, Kessler are all strong physically, all can punch and take it, but at the meantime they are all stationary, average defensively and slow. All that Ward showed, he showed against similar kind of opponents, where he had to deal with similar kind of qualities.
If he deals with Dawson easy he will prove me he is ATG, but I don't really believe it. Chad is completely different challange to what he seen so far in Pros and not only that, he's also just best fighter on his way overall. It's a true test of his greatness right now. If he passes, I may look at his chances against Toney a little bit differently.
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Old 09-21-2016, 02:55 PM #59
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Andre Ward 8-4.
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Old 09-21-2016, 03:05 PM #60
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Toney pretty easy,Skill wise toney was on a different level, a top top fighter.Wouldn't be far off a shutout type fight, 119 109 or something
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