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#31
Old 07-25-2012, 04:42 AM
techliam
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post

You keep bringing up race and color as a reason MOST people don't find the heavyweight division exciting. Where exactly is this information coming from? What proof do you have of this? I don't see anyone saying thats the reason they find it boring and unless you're able to psychoanalyze everyone you think that about (and over a computer no less) than you're full of crap.

The reason its seen as boring is because its like pulling teeth to get the best contenders to fight one another. When we do get that they're slow and out of shape more times than not. Its seen as boring because the two most dominant fighters do not seek and destroy in spite of having massive advantages in skill and more time than not, size.

Take a poll and ask what people prefer from their heavyweights, guys who are dominant but play it safe or guys who go balls to the wall. I promise you it would be lopsided in favor of the latter. I don't doubt there are some who don't like the Klits for their color, but the majority could care less and find the division boring for the reasons I named.

Gene Tunney was never accepted in his time because he came after Dempsey and was thought of as a thinking mans fighter, ie, boring. Holmes, same thing. Micheal Moorer because he wasn't the killer at heavyweight as he was at light heavyweight. People are drawn towards warriors, thats the bottom line. The whole race excuse is a fabrication with nothing to back it up made up by guys who cannot understand why people aren't as fascinated with certain fighters as they are.
Not so much race, or colour. But definitely nationality. We've got a situation where the Champions hardly ever speak English. Whilst Europeans are fine with that obviously, many Americans aren't. Lewis had a hard time winning over the American fans too, but at least he was British, which seems to be just as far as the American fans are willing to stretch in Europe. Even after the war with Lewis, which definitely was not boring, the American fans didn't catch onto Vitali's reign. Many find they are boring yes (though personally, I disagree about Vitali, I like his style), however it's impossible to say with authority that nationality is not a big part of the American reception to the Klitschkos. I definitely agree about race/colour though, assuming race wasn't referring to American/European thing.

But you know, the division is still there. Just because the American fans don't like it, doesn't mean its dead. Some people blur that distinction too much. Boxing is a global sport, not an American one.

I'm not meaning to sound totally anti-American, however i've seen a lot of posts regarding what i've discussed above.
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#32
Old 07-25-2012, 04:44 AM
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Don't forget to add nationalism to that as well. Everyone loves to win. Look at when Jack Johnson was winning against white club fighters when he was champion. Caucasians not only hated him cause of that but would degrade his accomplishments and say Jim Jefferies would beat him. Black america did not care if Johnson was ducking black boxers as long as he was beating white club fighters. The same guy today that is being praised as one of the greatest ever considering his best victory was against someone coming off years of inactivity and out of shape. Lot of people like to follow their own kind. Look at before the fights, they sing the national anthems of their place of origin. You're being naive if you think race, nationality, color, etc doesn't play with boxing. Also look at people that love defensive boxers who don't get hit often and happen to be black, they turn around and critizice the Klits for "boxing" as well, top it off most of their fights end in knockouts. The same knockouts people tuned in to watch Tyson even if he fought against the typical tomato can.




They get the knockouts. Mayweather and many other boxers don't seek and destroy. Look at the advantages Lewis had against the much shorter Holyfield and Tyson. He gets praised left and right because he beat them considering they weren't exactly prime boxers. You out of all people know boxing back then wasn't exciting because most major fights were clinchfests by the 5th round. I told you that before and you didn't respond to that. Also if they were so boring they wouldn't be selling out places time and time again.





Making a poll here about the Klits won't be a fair one. That's as credible as me making one in a Russian website. Besides most people on here are idiots who usually follow one or a small group of boxers.




Holmes getting praised around here much more than he deserves and Moorer sucks. People are not drawn to total warriors, that is such a false statement. The race excuse isn't a fabrication. Take out all these black dominating players playing basketball and put them in another sport. Bet basketball won't be watched as much. Look at Tiger Woods, no one gave a **** about golf till he showed up. Take Mexicans out of soccer and boxing and put them somewhere else. Same change.
Good Post, but gotta use an example. On my site, we got a **** load of Europeans ok?
What's the #1 sport in Europe? Soccer.
What kind of people are these soccer athletes? They are mostly European Whites and South American Mixed Latin/Spaniard features. Almost every British boxing fan also supports Wayne Rooney(white) steven gerrard(white) Frank Lampart(white) etc, YET they still hate the Kbros.

The reason I made this point is because if the Kbros were really disliked because they were white, why will so many British Boxing fans support their own white athletes, but hate on Kbros(who are also white)
The reason is simple, it's not because they are white, it's because they are not British. That is the primary factor, this race thing is overblown, the nationality thing is not.
It's weird how that works, if you are Polish, you might look the same as that guy in Liverpool, but you might as well be another race.
Nationality plays such a huge role, it is what it is. The same British fans roaring for David Beckham back in the early 2000's would have booed the **** out of Beckham if he was some German playing for Bayern Munich

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#33
Old 07-25-2012, 04:50 AM
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That being said, the above post only relates to European Fans. For American boxing fans, I notice a general perference towards 'black and slick'. I have never ever seen a Floyd Mayweather or Adrian Broner fan like a White Fighter. I just haven't.

On the other hand, I seen a lot of Carl Froch Fans also like Nigel Benn and Lennox Lewis. I see a lot of Joe Calzaghe fans also like Lennox Lewis.
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#34
Old 07-25-2012, 04:55 AM
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Good Post, but gotta use an example. On my site, we got a **** load of Europeans ok?
What's the #1 sport in Europe? Soccer.
What kind of people are these soccer athletes? They are mostly European Whites and South American Mixed Latin/Spaniard features. Almost every British boxing fan also supports Wayne Rooney(white) steven gerrard(white) Frank Lampart(white) etc, YET they still hate the Kbros.

The reason I made this point is because if the Kbros were really disliked because they were white, why will so many British Boxing fans support their own white athletes, but hate on Kbros(who are also white)
The reason is simple, it's not because they are white, it's because they are not British. That is the primary factor, this race thing is overblown, the nationality thing is not.
It's weird how that works, if you are Polish, you might look the same as that guy in Liverpool, but you might as well be another race.
Nationality plays such a huge role, it is what it is. The same British fans roaring for David Beckham back in the early 2000's would have booed the **** out of Beckham if he was some German playing for Bayern Munich
Many British boxing fans like Khan and Haye (Both British). However, many football players are black too. Not just white and Latino. Look at the England team. I don't agree with your Beckham argument, because Messi is loved in England whoever he plays for. Football is a whole different game.

I don't like using Britain in arguments like these as Britain is a much more multicultural and accepting country than most others, mostly for Historical reasons. That being said, you can see why perhaps race is viewed different in Britain than it is in other countries.
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#35
Old 07-25-2012, 04:59 AM
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Many British boxing fans like Khan and Haye (Both British). However, many football players are black too. Not just white and Latino. Look at the England team. I don't agree with your Beckham argument, because Messi is loved in England whoever he plays for. Football is a whole different game.

I don't like using Britain in arguments like these as Britain is a much more multicultural and accepting country than most others, mostly for Historical reasons. That being said, you can see why perhaps race is viewed different in Britain than it is in other countries.
Ya, but according to Kbro trolls, any body that hates Kbros hates ALL WHITE ATHLETES. That's the point I was making.

So if you hate Kbros, how can you love Wayne Rooney? Hence it's not true.

Also nationality is huge, lol. Messi is loved until Barca played Chelsea. I don't see anybody at Stamford Bridge cheering for Messi. You are also using the greatest footballer of the last 25 years as an example. So not really that fair, that's like saying 'everyone loves Ali'.

Use somebody like Sergio Ramos. Is Sergio Ramos as loved in England as Rio or Gary Neville? he would be, if he was English. So of course Nationality plays a huge role.

Once again you can't really use someone like Messi or Ronaldo, because they are bigger then the sport. But use any Spanish or German star, let's say they were English, they will be more popular in England just because of that.
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#36
Old 07-25-2012, 05:07 AM
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Ya, but according to Kbro trolls, any body that hates Kbros hates ALL WHITE ATHLETES. That's the point I was making.

So if you hate Kbros, how can you love Wayne Rooney? Hence it's not true.

Also nationality is huge, lol. Messi is loved until Barca played Chelsea. I don't see anybody at Stamford Bridge cheering for Messi. You are also using the greatest footballer of the last 25 years as an example. So not really that fair, that's like saying 'everyone loves Ali'.

Use somebody like Sergio Ramos. Is Sergio Ramos as loved in England as Rio or Gary Neville? he would be, if he was English. So of course Nationality plays a huge role.

Once again you can't really use someone like Messi or Ronaldo, because they are bigger then the sport. But use any Spanish or German star, let's say they were English, they will be more popular in England just because of that.
Of course they will, I never said nationality wasn't a big part. However I think you missed my point a bit, i'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Given Klitschko's are the champions, I thought it was fitting to use Messi as an example given he's usually named the top of the sport. I said Football is a totally different game, and people will not follow the same rules with Boxing. Hence I didn't like the Beckham argument. Just clearing that up buddy.
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#37
Old 07-25-2012, 05:10 AM
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Of course they will, I never said nationality wasn't a big part. However I think you missed my point a bit, i'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Given Klitschko's are the champions, I thought it was fitting to use Messi as an example given he's usually named the top of the sport. I said Football is a totally different game, and people will not follow the same rules with Boxing. Hence I didn't like the Beckham argument. Just clearing that up buddy.
AHHH. Hmm great point made there. Ya you are totally right. Different rules, different sports.
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#38
Old 07-25-2012, 01:11 PM
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Not so much race, or colour. But definitely nationality. We've got a situation where the Champions hardly ever speak English. Whilst Europeans are fine with that obviously, many Americans aren't. Lewis had a hard time winning over the American fans too, but at least he was British, which seems to be just as far as the American fans are willing to stretch in Europe. Even after the war with Lewis, which definitely was not boring, the American fans didn't catch onto Vitali's reign. Many find they are boring yes (though personally, I disagree about Vitali, I like his style), however it's impossible to say with authority that nationality is not a big part of the American reception to the Klitschkos. I definitely agree about race/colour though, assuming race wasn't referring to American/European thing.

But you know, the division is still there. Just because the American fans don't like it, doesn't mean its dead. Some people blur that distinction too much. Boxing is a global sport, not an American one.

I'm not meaning to sound totally anti-American, however i've seen a lot of posts regarding what i've discussed above.
I won't argue there is pride in ones own country or nationality, but that doesn't explain why Americans were never very fond of many of there own fighters who were seen as boring but have excepted MANY fighters from other countries who were exciting. Julio Cesar Chavez and Roberto Duran didn't speak English but American fans were drawn to them for their aggressive styles. Right now the heavyweight division is just slow and far more often than not unexciting. Because the majority of top heavies are from Europe has nothing to do with it in my opinion, it just is what it is. Hopefully things will improve.
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#39
Old 07-25-2012, 05:31 PM
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Sure pride in ones country plays a role to a certain extent. But it didn't help Tunney or Holmes, both of whom were American and seen as ATG's. The talent and skills were excepted, but they were still boring......to their own people. So this isn't an isolated thing because the Klits are not American, though I have little doubt that and their skin tone do play a role to certain types. On the other hand Americans have accepted and even loved foreign fighters in the past such as Pacquiao, Chavez, Trinidad and others. Barry McGuigan was a regular on American tv in the 80's and was not even close to as great as Wlad...but he was exciting. When fighters like Louis, Dempsey, Liston (who was still unloved by America), Foreman, Tyson and Holyfield fought you KNEW you were gonna get a guy who didn't just want to win, but who wanted to annihilate his opponent or die trying. I just don't get that sense from the Klits and neither do a lot of others, so they don't appeal to us.

I agree there would probably be a movie about them and they would be more popular here if they were American. They're the best heavyweight brother duo ever and up there with the top duo's of any weight class in any era.

Also, thank you for the candid and well thought out response. We may share different views on the topic but I can respect anyone willing to give a reasonable breakdown of why they think the way they do.
Actually Ukr_Alex is one of the few people I don't mind discussing the Klits with. He puts a lot of intelligent thought into his posts and is generally a good all-around scholar. You seriously need to recruit him to the History Section :cool9:

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Old 07-25-2012, 05:35 PM
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Agree. It's not race, it's nationality NATIONALITY NATIONALITY.

Look at how hard Lennox Lewis was bashed during his days. American Haters like to say 'Oh But Lennox was boring'

If you go through every single fight of Tyson's and Lennox's, you will find that the number of exciting fights they have had is around the same. You can even make a case that from 1990+ onwards, Lennox had more exciting fights.
Let's look at Lennox from 1990+ and his big fights.
Bruno- Slug Fest
Ruddock- Destruction
Golota-Destruction
Mercer-SlugFest
Grant-Destruction
Vitali-SlugFest
Morrison-technical beat down, can't really say that's boring
Marovic-Technical beat down.
Tyson-death of a legend beat down.
The only big fights which Lennox should have done more in was
Holyfield 1 2 and Tua. Lennox actaully had just as many exciting fights as Iron Mike. If Lewis was American, he will be a boxing God

He is getting his dues now, because the HW Division is being dominated by two Eastern Europeans. But believe me, if it was two Americans dominating the HW'S, who knows how long Lennox would have had to wait before he got his just dues and just rankings.

American Bias is surreal. They had Holyfield ranked ahead of Lewis in 1997, Lewis was coming off a beat down of Prime Golota, Holyfield went life and death with Vaughn...............

That being said, to all the retarded Kbro fans who claim it's because they are not slick and black, THAT'S WHY AMERICA DON'T LOVE THEM. That's stupid and moronic. Kbros are boring, but effective combine those traits with them being Eastern Europeans and it = death of the HW Division in America.
Actually I'm American and I liked Lennox from day 1. Sure, he had the occasional boring clunker but he certainly produced enough seek-and-destroy performances to easily offset the isolated snoozer. See the Briggs fight.

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