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#171
Old 05-14-2012, 03:09 AM
wmute
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Originally Posted by Scott9945 View Post
We obviously disagree with the effect that Pacquaio's catchweights had on his opponents performance, so there is no need to continue this debate.

And for the record, I'm opposed to catchweights in any title fight.
Me too, that is why I cannot rate Pac on the same level as fighters who do not demand them.
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#172
Old 05-14-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wmute View Post
Me too, that is why I cannot rate Pac on the same level as fighters who do not demand them.
so you dont rate ray leonard, floyd mayweather jr., julio cesar chavez jr., & bernard hopkins then?
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#173
Old 05-14-2012, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DTMB View Post
so you dont rate ray leonard, floyd mayweather jr., julio cesar chavez jr., & bernard hopkins then?
Read previous posts in this thread, you will understand. maybe.
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#174
Old 07-08-2012, 12:20 PM
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I know i'm late with this, but I recently saw a video that made me think about it and I thought it was worth giving my thoughts. First of all, Floyd is the best boxer I have ever seen. In my opinion he's better than and should be ranked above Manny Pacquiao, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Pernell Whitaker, Julio Cesar Chavez, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Leonard. I have watched all of those guys when they were at their peak in what have been described as their greatest victories and I don't think any of them were ever as good as Mayweather (That doesn't mean some of them weren't close). I can't tell you whether he's the GOAT yet because there are guys who have an argument for that who I am not yet educated on, like Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson. However it is hard for me to imagine a better boxer than Floyd when it comes to attributes, skills and just the overall package of everything that he has. He's boxing perfection and all of his attributes are 10 out of 10, except for his power maybe, but that is still an 8 or a 9. He also has a whole host of ring traits that most boxers don't have. He can let his opponent fight their kind of fight and still dominate them while never being in any danger of losing (The Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto fights show this). He fought them both toe-to-toe and still dominated.

As for what he can do to be considered the G.O.A.T., I think there is too much hate for his persona (which people just don't seem to be able to realise is fake), too much resentment of how much money he has made and continues to make, and too much racism in the world for him to ever be universally considered the greatest of all time. Another thing is that he's undefeated and I think that undefeated fighters, especially those who dominate like he does, don't get the credit they deserve because people just assume that they haven't tested themselves, because they haven't taken much punishment, regardless of how many top level opponents they have beaten. Floyd could have 10 more fights against top competition and retire undefeated and people would still say "He didn't fight this guy, He didn't fight that guy, so his legacy is tainted". This is what's going to happen with Pacquiao. Even though Floyd has tried to make the fight happen several times and completely dominated a guy who most people think beat Pacquiao in at least 2 if not in all of their 3 fights. Anyway - Here's my theory on what he could do. It's highly unlikely but here goes...

Let's say he faces Canelo in December of this year and dominates him, and Canelo continues to be a force in the division for many years to come. Then in December Miguel Cotto faces Hassan N'Dam N'Jikam for the WBO Middleweight title which is likely about to be stripped from Dmitry Pirog (N'Jikam is the interim champion and will be upgraded to full champion). Let's say that Cotto beats him in impressive fashion and then Floyd rematches Cotto at 160 in May 2013 and completely dominates and stops him to win the Middleweight title. Then later that year he faces Sergio Martinez assuming that Martinez beats Chavez Jr and dominates him also at 160. Then in May 2014 he faces the Dmitry Pirog/Genndady Golovkin winner and dominates that fight, and then takes on the Felix Sturm/Daniel Geale winner and dominates that fight also becoming the Undisputed Middleweight Champion of the world having defeated every single titlist in the division. A division that is two divisions higher than his natural division against much bigger opponents (with the exception of Cotto) in his mid to late 30's. If he did that, he would have won 12 world titles in 6 different divisions having defeated 22 world champions (two of them twice) and around 30 world class opponents overall having only had two legitmately close fights (against Castillo) during that time. That would be absolutley magnificent and if he did it then I think it would be very hard for anyone to claim that he doesn't at least belong in the Top 5 and have a legitimate argument for being #1. I think he should be in the G.O.A.T. debate now.

It would be an absolutley brilliant feat if he did that. I know it's highly unlikely and probably won't happen but I wanted to share the idea.

Last edited by JK1700; 07-08-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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#175
Old 07-08-2012, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
I know i'm late with this, but I recently saw a video that made me think about it and I thought it was worth giving my thoughts. First of all, Floyd is the best boxer I have ever seen. In my opinion he's better than and should be ranked above Manny Pacquiao, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Pernell Whitaker, Julio Cesar Chavez, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Leonard. I have watched all of those guys when they were at their peak in what have been described as their greatest victories and I don't think any of them were ever as good as Mayweather (That doesn't mean some of them weren't close). I can't tell you whether he's the GOAT yet because there are guys who have an argument for that who I am not yet educated on, like Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson. However it is hard for me to imagine a better boxer than Floyd when it comes to attributes, skills and just the overall package of everything that he has. He's boxing perfection and all of his attributes are 10 out of 10, except for his power maybe, but that is still an 8 or a 9. He also has a whole host of ring traits that most boxers don't have. He can let his opponent fight their kind of fight and still dominate them while never being in any danger of losing (The Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto fights show this). He fought them both toe-to-toe and still dominated.

As for what he can do to be considered the G.O.A.T., I think there is too much hate for his persona (which people just don't seem to be able to realise is fake), too much resentment of how much money he has made and continues to make, and too much racism in the world for him to ever be universally considered the greatest of all time. Another thing is that he's undefeated and I think that undefeated fighters, especially those who dominate like he does, don't get the credit they deserve because people just assume that they haven't tested themselves, because they haven't taken much punishment, regardless of how many top level opponents they have beaten. Floyd could have 10 more fights against top competition and retire undefeated and people would still say "He didn't fight this guy, He didn't fight that guy, so his legacy is tainted". This is what's going to happen with Pacquiao. Even though Floyd has tried to make the fight happen several times and completely dominated a guy who most people think beat Pacquiao in at least 2 if not in all of their 3 fights. Anyway - Here's my theory on what he could do. It's highly unlikely but here goes...

Let's say he faces Canelo in December of this year and dominates him, and Canelo continues to be a force in the division for many years to come. Then in December Miguel Cotto faces Hassan N'Dam N'Jikam for the WBO Middleweight title which is likely about to be stripped from Dmitry Pirog (N'Jikam is the interim champion and will be upgraded to full champion). Let's say that Cotto beats him in impressive fashion and then Floyd rematches Cotto at 160 in May 2013 and completely dominates and stops him to win the Middleweight title. Then later that year he faces Sergio Martinez assuming that Martinez beats Chavez Jr and dominates him also at 160. Then in May 2014 he faces the Dmitry Pirog/Genndady Golovkin winner and dominates that fight, and then takes on the Felix Sturm/Daniel Geale winner and dominates that fight also becoming the Undisputed Middleweight Champion of the world having defeated every single titlist in the division. A division that is two divisions higher than his natural division against much bigger opponents (with the exception of Cotto) in his mid to late 30's. If he did that, he would have won 12 world titles in 6 different divisions having defeated 22 world champions (two of them twice) and around 30 world class opponents overall having only had two legitmately close fights (against Castillo) during that time. That would be absolutley magnificent and if he did it then I think it would be very hard for anyone to claim that he doesn't at least belong in the Top 5 and have a legitimate argument for being #1. I think he should be in the G.O.A.T. debate now.

It would be an absolutley brilliant feat if he did that. I know it's highly unlikely and probably won't happen but I wanted to share the idea.
You really think Floyd should be ranked above Hearns, Duran and Sugar Ray Leonard??? on what basis?
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#176
Old 07-08-2012, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kendom View Post
You really think Floyd should be ranked above Hearns, Duran and Sugar Ray Leonard??? on what basis?
I think he's a better boxer than any of them ever was and that had he came along in their era, he would've beaten each and every one of them. It seems to me that Leonard is viewed as being the best because he beat Hearns and Duran decisively, and Hagler controversially, and I think Floyd is better than Sugar Ray in many ways. For example his inside game is better, his defence is much better and he is smarter also. Floyd never would've made the stupid mistake of standing toe-to-toe with Duran. I thought Hagler beat Leonard and I see him as being the biggest threat to Floyd, but I think Mayweather would've broken him down in the middle and late rounds and won a competitive/close decision.

I'm not saying it would've been easy work for him to beat these guys, but none of them would've been able to cope with his defence, versatility, ring intelligence and laser-accurate punches. People like to point to resume and use it to define greatness but it's not Floyd's fault that he came along in this era, and his resume is much closer to those guy's resume's than most people are willing to admit. He's faced over 25 world class boxers, 17 world champions and has only had 2 close fights which were almost 10 years ago. That speaks for itself and tells me that he would be great in any era, because very very few boxers in history have dominated the competition like he has. Whatever you think of him outside the ring, you can't deny that he is one of the best boxers ever. Does he have the greatest resume of all time? No. Absolutley not. But in terms of skills and overall boxing attributes, he could very well be the GOAT.

Last edited by JK1700; 07-08-2012 at 06:40 PM.
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#177
Old 07-08-2012, 06:52 PM
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^Floyd hasn't even fought at middle yet. It's unfair to match him with Hagler, or unfair to say he'd beat him.
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#178
Old 07-08-2012, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
I think he's a better boxer than any of them ever was and that had he came along in their era, he would've beaten each and every one of them. It seems to me that Leonard is viewed as being the best because he beat Hearns and Duran decisively, and Hagler controversially, and I think Floyd is better than Sugar Ray in many ways. For example his inside game is better, his defence is much better and he is smarter also. Floyd never would've made the stupid mistake of standing toe-to-toe with Duran. I thought Hagler beat Leonard and I see him as being the biggest threat to Floyd, but I think Mayweather would've broken him down in the middle and late rounds and won a competitive/close decision.

I'm not saying it would've been easy work for him to beat these guys, but none of them would've been able to cope with his defence, versatility, ring intelligence and laser-accurate punches. People like to point to resume and use it to define greatness but it's not Floyd's fault that he came along in this era, and his resume is much closer to those guy's resume's than most people are willing to admit. He's faced over 25 world class boxers, 17 world champions and has only had 2 close fights which were almost 10 years ago. That speaks for itself and tells me that he would be great in any era, because very very few boxers in history have dominated the competition like he has. Whatever you think of him outside the ring, you can't deny that he is one of the best boxers ever. Does he have the greatest resume of all time? No. Absolutley not. But in terms of skills and overall boxing attributes, he could very well be the GOAT.
Floyd has never fought a straight Middleweight and you have him beating one of the greatest Middleweights of all time (Hagler)? Tommy Hearns was a murderous puncher who ultimately fought as high as Middle and light heavyweight. Floyd is just too naturally small. Many people don't even think Floyd could take out Sergio Martinez, much less these guys.


Sugar Ray has taken rounds and rounds of punches from the likes of Hagler and Hearns, he will barely notice Mayweather's shots. You know, there is a very simple Boxing principle that a lot of Floyd's die hard fans just don't seem to get. If the other guy doesn't care about your punches at all, your defense means nothing (unless we are talking about lumbering heavyweights who are vulnerable to good footwork). These guys are too big for Mayweather. Now you can make a pound for pound argument.

Last edited by res; 07-08-2012 at 07:27 PM.
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#179
Old 07-09-2012, 06:42 AM
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It would take a win over PAC khan and another top 154 pounder to put him in the greatest of all time and that's not even for all era's that's just this one.

For him to be the greatest of all time he would have had to beat zhu casamayor PAC prime Mosley prime oscar 140 hatton forest Margo prime 147 cotto and and a few others but in my eyes he's already goat of all time in this era with the elite fighters he's already beaten and won convincingly...
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