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#1
Old 04-16-2012, 07:43 PM
Omega-Red
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Default Why did Marciano Not Fight The Best of His Era.

Rocky Marciano has a legendary reputation in Boxing. My question for this thread is....what is it based on?

Now most people openly admit that the versions of Charles and Walcott that he fought were far from prime (The Joe Louis fight really doesn't even deserve to be brought up). So it isn't the quality of Rocky's competition that his reputation is based on among the greats, it is that famous record 49-0. If Rocky's 49-0 record is the basis of his greatness then the fighters on that record should be the very best that were available. But by my reckoning that is the furthest thing from the truth. Infact when you look at the highest ranked fighters of the era, and then you look at his record, it's scandalous how many he didn't fight. Many of the ones he DID choose to fight are just as scandalous.

Top fighters Marciano definitely should have fought that he didn't.

1) Nino Valdez


2) Tommy Jackson



3) Bob Baker


4) Dan Bucceroni


Those are just the definites, we could add many other names (like Clarence Henry or even Jimmy Bivins ) that while not as good, are definitely better than some of the guys he DID fight that make up that "legendary" record. Guys like these

Gilbert Cardone (career record 0-4)

Humphrey Jackon (Career Record 4-3)

Johnnie Pretzie (Career Record 10-13)

Jimmy Weeks (Career Record 0-1)

Bob Jefferson (Career Record 4-10)

Gilley Freron (Career Record 3-7)

Tommy DiGiorgio (Career Record 9-16)

Harry Haft (career Record 13-8)

James Patrick Connoly (career record 12-9)

Keene Simmons (Career Record 9-22).

Jimmy Walls (Career record 19-41)

Bill Hardemon (Career Record 1-6)

Harold Mitchell (Career Record 3-16)

Art Henri (career Record 18-29)

Willis Applegate (Career record 12-16)

Eldridge Eatman (career record 22-21)

None of these guys beat anyone of note as far as I know.


Many of these guys he even fought pretty far into his career when there were obviously alternatives.

To top if off, he didn't even stay around for Sonny Liston.

In light of this should this 49-0 record be as revered as it is to some?

Last edited by Omega-Red; 04-16-2012 at 07:50 PM.
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#2
Old 04-16-2012, 09:43 PM
young_robbed
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k im high right now but ill stil ltry to break down you r post. with that being said , im happy that you didnt bring up Sonny Liston. That would have been irrelivent.

I think Marciano pretty much fought everyone he could given his short career and the circumstances surroudning it. Marciano could not have fought prime versions of charles, louis, or walcott. however if yu watch those fights you can tell that even though they are faded, they still are reasonably good opponents and good competetion for The Rock. Walcott is just as fast and slick as he is against Hein Hoff/Charles. Charles gave his all the first fight, i think that is evident. as for louis, of course he is VERRY past it. but if you look at a few fights prior to the louis fight you can see louis still had a jab and power at the very least. Marciano was just too good for those guys.

Are you trying to say that Marciano would not have beat Valdez, Jackson etc?? I am almost 100% or at the very least (4)certain that he would have stopped all of those guys

as far as i can see Holmes deserves more critisizim for this.. Ducking tony tucker, dokes, page, coetzee, and a few other very good contenders.. there is no excuse for that ****.


EDIT:: **** you did bring up Sonny liston. ok he RETIRED before he got brain damaged and pernamentely ****ed like the majoirty of great champs. Good move on his part. him and lewis retired properly. i dont know how u can hold that against him, he said a bunch of times in interviews he was going to retire early because of his wife. I guess u also have to hate on Ali for not sticking around to fight Tyson and blame Lewis for not having a rematch with vitali/fighting wlad.

Last edited by young_robbed; 04-16-2012 at 09:45 PM. Reason: edit
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#3
Old 04-17-2012, 03:27 AM
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The names you've claimed to be "definites." how are they? Can you expand a bit?
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#4
Old 04-17-2012, 11:52 AM
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Rocky officially retired on April 27, 1956. Sonny Liston was 1st rated in the top 10 in the World at the end of 1958 (October 1958 Ring Magazine).

Sonny only fought once in 1956, and had no fights in 1957, so how can anyone say that Rocky retired because he didn't want to fight Sonny.
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#5
Old 04-17-2012, 12:38 PM
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eh Rocky was the good champ of a poor(ish) era - that is known. I doubt if you'll find too many people here who will claim he's the greatest or anything. If he'd come a little earlier or a little later he'd likely have taken losses but I'm pretty sure he'd have given prime Joe Louis/Walcott pretty tough fights before probably either being tkoed or UD. I'd favor him over patterson however I do think Liston would have destroyed him. He'd love Rocky's stand right in front of him style. So really I think Rocky coming a few years earlier/a few years later would have resulted in the following.

1 He'd have had some great scraps with the likes of Walcott/Louis, with the results imo being reversed.

2 If he'd come a tiny bit later patterson would be a little more than a blurb in the history books and 2 Sonny Liston would have appeared even more badass after destroying Rocky in foreman v frazier type style.
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#6
Old 04-17-2012, 02:11 PM
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Marciano had little or no amateur experience, and he was brought along smartly. Thus the numerous fights with guys with not-so-great records. That is pretty typical of any fighter. Now, the fighters that you mention, that he should have fought...
Dan Bucceroni did several things to knock himself out of title contention. In 1951 he was kod in 5 by LHW Bob Murphy. In 1952 he was decisioned and knocked down 5 times by light punching LaStarza, and LaStarza was beaten twice by Marciano. In 1954, while Marciano was champion, Bucceroni lost3 times.
Tommy Jackson, in 1953, the year Marciano won the title, was fighting 6 round prelim fights. In 1954 he lost to Jimmy Slade and Nino Valdes. No title shot.
Valdes, from Nov 1952 to May 1953 lost 4 straight, one to LHW Harold Johnson, and one to Archie Moore, who subsequently fought Marciano.
Bob Baker was not a credible challenger because in 1953 he was kod in 1 by Bob Satterfield, and in 1954 he was stopped by Archie Moore in 9.
So it would seem that in fighting Moore and LaStarza and Charles, he was fighting the top contenders. At the time he retired Marciano had a very bad back and other aches and pains brought on by his continuous training; he was worn out so he retired. Had a prime and healthy Marciano fought Liston, I think he would have gotten past Liston's long left hand, worked his body and chopped him down with right hands in 12-14 rounds. Marty Marshall stopped liston in 2 by breaking his jaw and he was no Marciano.
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#7
Old 04-17-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
Marciano had little or no amateur experience, and he was brought along smartly. Thus the numerous fights with guys with not-so-great records. That is pretty typical of any fighter. Now, the fighters that you mention, that he should have fought...
Dan Bucceroni did several things to knock himself out of title contention. In 1951 he was kod in 5 by LHW Bob Murphy. In 1952 he was decisioned and knocked down 5 times by light punching LaStarza, and LaStarza was beaten twice by Marciano. In 1954, while Marciano was champion, Bucceroni lost3 times.
Tommy Jackson, in 1953, the year Marciano won the title, was fighting 6 round prelim fights. In 1954 he lost to Jimmy Slade and Nino Valdes. No title shot.
Valdes, from Nov 1952 to May 1953 lost 4 straight, one to LHW Harold Johnson, and one to Archie Moore, who subsequently fought Marciano.
Bob Baker was not a credible challenger because in 1953 he was kod in 1 by Bob Satterfield, and in 1954 he was stopped by Archie Moore in 9.
So it would seem that in fighting Moore and LaStarza and Charles, he was fighting the top contenders. At the time he retired Marciano had a very bad back and other aches and pains brought on by his continuous training; he was worn out so he retired. Had a prime and healthy Marciano fought Liston, I think he would have gotten past Liston's long left hand, worked his body and chopped him down with right hands in 12-14 rounds. Marty Marshall stopped liston in 2 by breaking his jaw and he was no Marciano.
Liston was a 2 fight novice with only 1 year of amateur experience AND marshall did not stop him, Liston went the distance even with a broken jaw AND Liston stopped marshall in the rematch AND Liston dominated the rubber match.
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#8
Old 04-17-2012, 03:40 PM
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Was there a time when Patterson-Marciano could have happened?
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:20 PM
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Floyd was a middleweight when Rock retired, he didn't fight as a heavy till the 56 or 57. Rocky was about 13 or 14 years older than Floyd and Sonny they were NOT from the same era. Just as Joe Louis wasn't from Rock's. They fought because Joe was in need of a pay day. There was NO way that Sonny was ready for Marciano early in his career Marciano would have destroyed him. You should read up on Rock and find out how fighters from that era who fought him discribe his punches. You would not be underating him in fights. He was the poster boy for "punchers chance" plus he had a method and plenty of techniques to go along with it. Ray
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#10
Old 04-17-2012, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal Buck View Post
Was there a time when Patterson-Marciano could have happened?
Possibly, but I personally heard Floyd say years later he didn't want none of Marciano. Patterson was very carefully managed during the 1950's.
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