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#21
Old 03-14-2012, 03:53 PM
Danny Gunz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancovboxer View Post
Have you ever took into consideration how much of the product is sugar & how cheap sugar/dextrose is? Yet Muscle milk is an absolute ripoff. (Hell the stuff is basically powdered milk)

I also believe Muscle milk uses slower digesting proteins.

I'm not having a go or being arsey, just saying you could save a some good money here.
It's the supplement industry, they're full of crap, ''window of opportunity''
They will literally tell the public anything to get them to part with their money.
You beat me to the Muscle Milk criticism. Never liked that stuff, way too much sugar for me.

Supplements are a shady industry. You really need to research the products before dropping the money for those high prices.
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#22
Old 03-14-2012, 06:05 PM
paul750
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There are a few respected people who are now coming out and saying that protein shakes are simply not needed, and in many cases they are counterproductive. One of them is a former bodybuilder, but I forget his name.

The theory that you need a quick source of protein after a workout probably is true, but that still doesn't mean that shakes are necessary. I used to take them, but I haven't bothered for a while now. I'm not going to fade away without them.
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#23
Old 03-15-2012, 01:28 AM
Ukr_Alex
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I guess what has been said so far is the most effective way to absorb all the proteins.

But when I was bulking few years back, to be honest I had no specific schedule for taking in the shakes or eating etc...Sometimes I would take a shake at the gym in the change room...sometimes I would have a shake when I got home an hour or two after....sometimes I wouldn't have one at all....etc etc....

At the end of the day I still bulked up.......but I'm 100% positive the results would have been much better if I took the shakes sooner, eat carbs before gym etc...But for me I have a very light breakfast and go the gym an hour or two after...I just cant eat in the morning no matter what.


What I'm trying to say its not a disaster if you don't fall into that 20-30min window.....your body will still absorb that protein or whatever nutrition it needs...it just will not be as effective.
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#24
Old 03-15-2012, 01:30 AM
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Primarily food, but a lot of times both. Food is the best for you after a workout. I usually just drink a protein shake if I do not have any food.
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#25
Old 03-15-2012, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul750 View Post
There are a few respected people who are now coming out and saying that protein shakes are simply not needed, and in many cases they are counterproductive. One of them is a former bodybuilder, but I forget his name.

The theory that you need a quick source of protein after a workout probably is true, but that still doesn't mean that shakes are necessary. I used to take them, but I haven't bothered for a while now. I'm not going to fade away without them.
Problem is.......how is a 200lb+ guy to get all that protein naturally? Even if you don't agree with that 2g per 1lb ratio, its still hard to eat that much eat in a day...forget about the fact that it will cost you...
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#26
Old 03-15-2012, 01:43 AM
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Shakes before food after.

your body is constanly break down muslce and building muslcle.

depending on if its doing more building then breaking down or more breaking down then build is where you get the anabolic and catabolic.

if your body is building more then breaking down your body is anabolic and if your body is breaking down more tghen building its catabolic.




sooooo what your doing when you work out is breaking down the muslce.

BUUUUTTTTTT lets say you have sufficient protien allready in your system????

holy crap, you can actually maintain an anabolic state while working out simply by having a protien shake before exercise.




Now as far as eating after exercise, its all about evolution, lets say youve been running through the jungle for about and hour seeking food, suddenly you come across a few berries, not enough to sustain you but enough to give you alittle energy.

now what happens is your body releases an increased amount of insulin so it can digest and convert the carbs into glucose at a much greater rate, allowing those berries or fruit to provide near instant energy.

what this means is that if you eat with in 2 hours of exercising, the food is broken down and converted to glucose at a much greaer rate providing you with energy for the rest of your day much mor quickly then if you waited a few hours to eat after exercise.


sooooo there is nothing wrong with having a protien shake after exercising, but if your only having one a day take it before exercising..


and you dont have to eat after exercise, but its not a bad idea to take advantage of your bodys increased ability of converting simple and complex carbs to glucose.



personally i enjoy a small snack of simple carbs, like sugary ceral, and a protien shake prior to working out, and then a nice meal afterwards.
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#27
Old 03-15-2012, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukr_Alex View Post
Problem is.......how is a 200lb+ guy to get all that protein naturally? Even if you don't agree with that 2g per 1lb ratio, its still hard to eat that much eat in a day...forget about the fact that it will cost you...
it all depends on what your doing, a normal boxer dosnt do many muscle tearing exercises, they mainly burn carbs, so if your a 200+ LB boxer thats getting enough carbs, and sticking to boxing and calistentics, not heavy lifting in the gym, only about 15-20% of your caloric intake needs to be protien.

so like say your 200 lbs at 10% bf, the average lb of non fat needs about 19 calories a day. so 180*19=3420 well round up to make things easier and say this 200 lb person eats 3500 calories a day. so thats about 500-700 calories from protien so thats 125-175 grams of protien for the 200lb boxer thats 10% bf.

and even then you need to do what your body tells you, if your not recoverying properly even with recovery days, you need more protien, if your not recovering properly and your tired you might not be getting enough carbs so your burning protien. and if your recovering fine but your tired, you need more carbs and less protien.

your nutritional requirements are never a 1 size fits all thing like 2g or 1 g per lb.

though i agree that protien shakes can do alot to help you get in a few extra grams of protien with out the added carbs or fats that usually come with food, and gram for gram tend to be cheaper then food dpending on the shake you chose.

Last edited by Spartacus Sully; 03-15-2012 at 01:57 AM..
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#28
Old 03-15-2012, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cab Driver View Post
maybe gain a little weight, not too much though.
Protein every 3 hours, its that simple. 30 grams every 3 hours and you'll gain weight.
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#29
Old 03-15-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukr_Alex View Post
Problem is.......how is a 200lb+ guy to get all that protein naturally? Even if you don't agree with that 2g per 1lb ratio, its still hard to eat that much eat in a day...forget about the fact that it will cost you...
I've found one of the people who's against them. He's supposed to be a bodybuilding champion. Here is a little bit of what he said, and a link to the full version:

The protein found in many of today’s shakes are predigested, which means they are chemically altered to allow for faster assimilation. In terms of supplying protein quickly to needy muscles, this sounds like an excellent idea, especially after a hard workout, but it actually isn’t. Many studies confirm that ingestion of protein can increase your metabolic rate over 30% more than other food sources. This increase in metabolic rate from protein intake is called the thermic effect, and is a key factor in effective body fat reduction and is one of the reasons high protein diets are recommended for promoting fat loss. However, by drinking a protein shake in liquid form, it will always be assimilated faster than its natural, real food, solid counterpart

As an up and coming natural bodybuilder, one of the first rules I learned from my coaches is that you never have protein shakes before a contest, and that you should always eliminate them at least three months out if you really want to get your body fat levels down. In so doing, you rely solely on solid foods that take full advantage of the thermic effect. My coaches, maintained that long before there were protein shakes, men and women had no problems building muscle and reducing their body fat and it is hard to argue with the list of impressive natural bodybuilders before the 1970’s

http://www.naturallyintense.net/blog...-do-they-work/

I'm on the fence about it. But you do have to wonder what marketing has done. If people say you need a ton of protein and you need it as fast as possible after a workout [and that shakes are the best at doing that], then there are people making a lot of money. Food for thought.
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#30
Old 03-16-2012, 11:31 AM
Ukr_Alex
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Originally Posted by paul750 View Post

I'm on the fence about it. But you do have to wonder what marketing has done. If people say you need a ton of protein and you need it as fast as possible after a workout [and that shakes are the best at doing that], then there are people making a lot of money. Food for thought.

That's the problem...we really do not know because of all the marketing bull****....I have access to medical journals through my uni but I'm not a med student so half of the articles are very specific rather than "protein supplementation" but here is one that I found recently.


THE EFFECTS OF CREATINE AND WHEY PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTATION
ON BODY COMPOSITION IN MEN AGED 48 TO 72 YEARS
DURING RESISTANCE TRAINING
"Abstract: Objectives: Creatine and whey protein are supplements believed to have an ergogenic effect. Very
little is known regarding the effects of these dietary supplements in older men. The purpose of this study was to
determine the effect of creatine and whey protein supplements, consumed independently and in combination, on
total and regional body composition in middle-aged men during a resistance-training program. Conclusion: The results from this study suggest that supplementation with creatine,
whey protein, or a combination of creatine and whey protein, when combined with resistance training in middleaged
men, have no added benefit to changes that occur to body composition due to resistance training alone."

Also it appears like Argenine supplementation is actually beneficial in many cases.

"Long-term leucine supplementation does not increase muscle mass or strength in healthy elderly men"


"CUTE PROTEIN-CARBOHYDRATE SUPPLEMENTATION: EFFECTS ON EXERCISE-INDUCED MUSCLE DAMAGE
Author(s): ****burn, E (****burn, Emma)
Source: CURRENT TOPICS IN NUTRACEUTICAL RESEARCH Volume: 8 Issue: 1 Pages: 7-17 Published: FEB 2010
Times Cited: 0 (from Web of Science)
Cited References: 100 [ view related records ] Citation MapCitation Map
Abstract: In recent years, research investigating strategies to reduce exercise-induced muscle damage have become popular, with acute carbohydrate-protein supplementation gaining interest. The results of these studies are equivocal. A review of published peer-reviewed articles in reference to acute carbohydrate-protein supplementation and their impact on alleviating exercise-induced muscle damage is provided, in addition to an overview of the exercise-induced muscle damage process and rationale for their use. It can be concluded that there is potential for acute carbohydrate-protein supplementation to reduce some symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage. Primarily, there is evidence of reduced increases in intramuscular proteins in serum and attenuated reductions in concentric muscle actions. However, there is little evidence of muscle soreness being alleviated. There are also substantial gaps in the literature, with information lacking in: (i) optimal dosage; (ii) optimal timing of supplementation; (iii) the effect on all paradigms of muscle function; and (iv) make-up of supplement(s), although whey protein concentrate and milk-based protein appear to provide benefits. Due to the conflicting results and the lack of studies conducted in this area it is difficult to provide definitive advice to the exercising individual. However, consuming carbohydrate-protein supplements would he recommended as they have demonstrated potential for reducing exercise-induced muscle damage and may be beneficial for other aspects of recovery. "

"Protein and amino acid supplementation in sport
Author(s): Nemet, D (Nemet, Dan); Eliakim, A (Eliakim, Alon)
Source: INTERNATIONAL SPORTMED JOURNAL Volume: 8 Issue: 1 Pages: 11-23 Published: 2007
Times Cited: 3 (from Web of Science)
Cited References: 62 [ view related records ] Citation MapCitation Map
Abstract: Objective: To perform a literature review of the current available data on protein and amino acid supplementation in sports, their efficacy and safety. Data sources: The search was limited to English language citations published in the years 1980- 2007. MEDLINE and PubMed searches were performed in March 2007 on all studies using the Mesh terms: proteins, amino acids, supplement, the desired supplement name and sports/ exercise. Study section: Initially, only randomised controlled clinical trials were included in the analysis. In addition, several recent reviews and relevant meta- analyses were used. Data extraction: A title scan was performed to exclude references that did not include protein supplementation, exercise, or the population's health status was abnormal. Relevant literature was identified, sourced, and reviewed and the selected manuscripts are cited. Data synthesis: Although protein supplementation has been widely discussed in the literature for many years, it was surprising to find the relatively low number of randomised controlled trials that met the inclusion criteria for this review. When the general terms "protein/ amino acids" were used, 43 citations met the criteria; "creatine" yielded 53 citations; "glutamine" 2 citations, and "beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyric acid ( HMB)" 9 citations. The bulk of the data suggests that protein requirements are usually met by an iso-caloric, balanced diet, for both endurance and resistance training. Supplementing the athlete's diet with protein or amino acids has not proven beneficial and may even sometimes be harmful. Creatine is currently the only product that has clear scientific support to enhance sporting performance. The timing of protein supplementation may be an important factor in trying to achieve anabolic effects. Conclusions: The use of protein supplements for the healthy, noncompetitive adult engaged in recreational sports is usually not warranted. There are only limited data to support protein supplementation in competitive sports. There is some evidence supporting the use of creatine and possibly HMB as ergogenic aids in specific situations. Further research is needed before definitive recommendations can be made on the type, timing and effectiveness of protein supplements. "

"Studies of nitrogen balance in athletes
demonstrate endurance athletes require 1.2 to 1.4 g/kg/d, and
strength athletes require 1.4 to 1.8 g/kg/d. There is no evidence
to support protein supplement in doses greater then 2.0 g/kg/
d, as excess protein intake is stored as carbohydrate or fat.
Supplementation with specific amino acids such as the
BCAAs is more controversial. Earlier studies suggested BCAA
supplementation may offer some benefit in athletes, possibly
through decreasing brain serotonin levels, decreasing symptoms
of infections, and increasing postexercise protein synthesis.
Although the literature has yet to conclusively support
the use of supplemental amino acids in the healthy athlete,
the popularity of supplementation continues to rise.
As physicians and health care providers, it has become
imperative to know the current literature in order to counsel
individual athletes on the risk and benefits of amino acid supplementation.
Therefore, the cost, lack of clear performance
benefit, and potential risks do not support the routine use of
protein and amino acid supplementation above 1.4 g/kg/d in
endurance athletes and 1.8 g/kg/d in strength athletes."

"Side Effects of Creatine Supplementation in Athletes
Author(s): Francaux, M (Francaux, Marc)1; Poortmans, JR (Poortmans, Jacques R.)2
Source: INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF SPORTS PHYSIOLOGY AND PERFORMANCE Volume: 1 Issue: 4 Pages: 311-323 Published: DEC 2006
Times Cited: 3 (from Web of Science)
Cited References: 42 [ view related records ] Citation MapCitation Map
Abstract: Context: Allegations about side effects of creatine supplementation by athletes have been published in the popular media and scientific publications. Purpose: To examine the experimental evidence relating to the physiological effects of creatine supplementation. Results: One of the purported effects of oral creatine supplementation is increased muscle mass. A review of the literature reveals a 1.0% to 2.3% increase in body mass, which is attributed to fat-free mass and, more specifically, to skeletal-muscle mass. Although it is unlikely that water retention can completely explain these changes, increase in muscle-protein synthesis has never been observed after creatine supplementation. Indirect evidence based on mRNA analyses suggests that transcription of certain genes is enhanced. Although the effect of creatine on muscle-protein synthesis seems irrefutable according to advertising, this allegation remains under debate in the scientific literature. The kidneys appear to maintain their functionality in healthy subjects who supplement with creatine, even over several months. Conclusion: The authors, however, think that creatine supplementation should not be used by an individual with preexisting renal disease and that risk should be evaluated before and during any supplementation period. Even if there is a slight increase in mutagenic agents (methylamine and formaldehyde) in urine after a heavy load of creatine (20 g/day), their excretion remains within a normal range. No data are currently available regarding the potential production of heterocyclic amines with creatine supplementation. In summary, the major risk for health is probably associated with the purity of commercially available creatine. "

Last edited by Ukr_Alex; 03-16-2012 at 11:49 AM..
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