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View Poll Results: Which stipulation helped Leonard the most?
The larger ring 11 47.83%
The larger gloves 0 0%
The 12 round length 12 52.17%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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#11
Old 10-24-2011, 06:52 PM
Mugwump
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12 rounds hurt Hagler the most. But it was not a gamebreaker. I think Hagler's mistake was in completely underestimating the emotional potency of Ray's return and the air of nostalgia it instilled within the crowd. He didn't realise he was battling against arguably the biggest home-team advantage in modern times (look at the likes of Gene Hackman cheering like a schoolkid for Leonard) until it was far too late and went down fighting an unbeatable myth rather than a very beatable man.
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#12
Old 10-24-2011, 09:50 PM
joseph5620
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Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
12 rounds hurt Hagler the most. But it was not a gamebreaker. I think Hagler's mistake was in completely underestimating the emotional potency of Ray's return and the air of nostalgia it instilled within the crowd. He didn't realise he was battling against arguably the biggest home-team advantage in modern times (look at the likes of Gene Hackman cheering like a schoolkid for Leonard) until it was far too late and went down fighting an unbeatable myth rather than a very beatable man.
Hagler clearly losing the first four rounds and foolishly fighting right handed early hurt Hagler far more than Gene Hackman or the crowd. The 12 rounds and large ring helped Leonard more but Leonard made Hagler look old and slow. There is no getting around that.
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#13
Old 10-25-2011, 11:32 AM
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Rounds. No doubt. Totally a ***** move. But this is also very true ^^^. As painful as it is to admit.
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#14
Old 10-25-2011, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
Hagler clearly losing the first four rounds and foolishly fighting right handed early hurt Hagler far more than Gene Hackman or the crowd. The 12 rounds and large ring helped Leonard more but Leonard made Hagler look old and slow. There is no getting around that.
To outside observers Hagler was giving rounds away. But he clearly thought he was in the fight (hence his numerous complaints about the judging). Hagler made the mistake of not recognising that Ray was riding on the tide of emotion that was sweeping the auditorium. At the very least it must have put an enormous amount of pressure upon the judging which meant that Hagler needed to be conspicuous - especially as Leonard cleverly amplified the emotion by throwing every flashy shot in the book. He wasn't.

Yes, Hagler did look slow. However, any careful observer could see that Leonard was also a pale shadow of his former self. For sure he was beating Marvin to the punch. But he could only sustain his attack in short bursts. Hagler needed to be in Leonard's face every time he took his foot off the pedal.
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#15
Old 10-26-2011, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bojangles1987 View Post
Definitely the 12 rounds. Hagler fought a fifteen round fight, and it cost him.

The biggest mistake Hagler made was letting Leonard charm him. Don't get me started on this fight though, I'll believe to the day I die that Hagler was screwed. Leonard did better than expected and won the fight just because of that.
I don't know if I can say Hagler was screwed, but it certainly didn't feel like he was soundly beat whatsoever. It doesn't hurt him as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad he left the ring never came back to embarrass himself. MMH to me is a fighter's fighter and a true legend of the sport. His resume is impeccable IMO: Ring Record, KO% (highest in middleweight history), quality of opposion, dominance of division. Marvin avenged every loss or draw and did it by way of KO to leave no doubts. The lone loss he didn't avenge is due to being refused a rematch, and for good reason. He also breaks Monzon's then-record for title defenses if he isn't jobbed in the Antuofermo fight too. H2H, he's undoubtedly by No. 1 and I don't waver on it, period.

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Last edited by TAC602; 10-26-2011 at 06:27 AM.
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#16
Old 10-26-2011, 06:49 AM
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Hagler was beat by Leonard. . . No robbery here. . . Hagler didn't have to deal with anything different than other fighters have had too. . . Leonard looked amazing in this fight. . . so much hand speed. . . AMAZING wheels on him too. . . that's boxing IMO. . .

PIECED Hagler up. . . Lol then Hagler acted like a baby and cried about it. . . "waaaaaa i got beat but i think i deserved to win!" WAAAAAAAAAA!
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#17
Old 11-19-2011, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by uglypug View Post
Hagler was beat by Leonard. . . No robbery here. . . Hagler didn't have to deal with anything different than other fighters have had too. . . Leonard looked amazing in this fight. . . so much hand speed. . . AMAZING wheels on him too. . . that's boxing IMO. . .

PIECED Hagler up. . . Lol then Hagler acted like a baby and cried about it. . . "waaaaaa i got beat but i think i deserved to win!" WAAAAAAAAAA!
Well, I do think it's unfair to Leonard that this particular fight is largely the reason detractors whine about pitter patter, stealing, running, etc. when in reality, almost all of Leonard's illustrious wins were via knockout:

Benitez (38-0-1) - TKO15
Green (33-2-0) - KO4
Duran (72-1-0) - TKO8 (officially)
Kalule (36-0-0) - TKO9
Hearns (32-0-0) - TKO14

What an F-in' Resume.

Clearly, nobody was ever going to KO Marvelous, owner of arguably the greatest chin in boxing history.

Last edited by TAC602; 11-19-2011 at 02:18 PM.
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#18
Old 11-19-2011, 03:12 PM
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The Judges man...The ****in judges!

Of what u list though i think the distance, even though im of the understanding its what both guys wanted - 15 would have suited Marvin better what with SRL's inactivity
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#19
Old 11-19-2011, 05:10 PM
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I think a rematch, if it were to happen would have clearly gone to Marvin. He would of used every inch of his stamina to take the fight to ray and fight him on the inside with a good body attack which would have done ray in IMO. but se la vie
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#20
Old 11-19-2011, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
Hagler clearly losing the first four rounds and foolishly fighting right handed early hurt Hagler far more than Gene Hackman or the crowd. The 12 rounds and large ring helped Leonard more but Leonard made Hagler look old and slow. There is no getting around that.

You took the words out of my mouth, I voted that the 12 round distance was the biggest factor, but boxing was going that way anyway. The amount of 15 round fights after 1987 was much reduced. Come to think of it, no title fights even jump to mind.....was there any 15 round fights post 1987? I'm stuck to think of one!!! So no real excuse there for Hagler fans........

And yes, Hagler looked old and slow. Although the fight was closer on second viewing, Hagler was made to look foolish at times with wild missing, he was slow to capitalise on Leonard's mistakes, he didn't apply enough pressure, his handspeed was quite reduced too. Come to think of it, did Leonard actually miss with any of his combinations? Hagler was quite a goal keeper that night. If Leonard didn't beat him he might have been exposed shortly after regardless. I think that the Hagler that fought Leonard would have had a tough time with Hearns, Barkley, Benn or even Eubank a few years later.

Adding to all the above he gave away the early rounds trying to make a point of fighting orthodox, what was he and the Petronelli's thinking? Come to think of it, the Petronelli's cornerwork was dire that night. Even Gil Clancy remarked on the telecast that they were talking to Hagler like it was 'an IBM meeting' between rounds, no hint to their fighter that the scoring might have been a little close!!!

Was prime Hagler better than Leonard at middleweight? Yes

Would Hagler have won a rematch? Possibly

What was the real reason Hagler lost? His age! He wasn't prime any longer.
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